talkpolitics | Cops and Teachers? THEY Don't Pay Taxes!

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Cops and Teachers? THEY Don't Pay Taxes!

Wisconsin State Assemblyman Robin Vos lets us all know what he thinks of those taxpaying Wisconsin citizens who work in the public sector:

The reality is they haven’t had to pay for these things, they’re upset about doing it now, and the taxpayers are the ones who definitely understand this because they get it, they’ve been doing this in the private sector for years, it’s time we had the same thing happen in the public sector…The fact that my Democratic colleagues want to go back to the taxpayer and have them pay higher taxes because someone shouldn’t pay 12% towards their healthcare….We are standing with the taxpayers all across Wisconsin. It’s amazing the outpouring of support that we’ve been getting from the people outside the Capitol Square, the people who are in the reality of the world, not the place that we’re sitting.

Howard Dean does a very good job of refuting Kudlow and Vos’ fiction that the demonstrations are all about the cuts in benefits and not about the elimination of collective bargaining. The capper to this exchange, however, comes near the end of the segment, when a sign appears just over Vos’ shoulder on the right. Not the kind of thing Kudlow could choreograph.

It beautifully highlights the idiocy of Vos' fiction that the demonstrators are, in some fundamental way, less American than other Americans. Does he really think cops and teachers don't pay taxes, or “live in the reality of the world?”

Crossposted from Thoughtcrimes
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The card I'm playing is the "reality" card. Unions, imperfect as they may be, are the only way that workers have a shot at wielding the same level of clout as their more well-heeled employers.

no, its the fear card. and the demonstrations in wisconsin are perfect evidence of this. scott walker is being compared to hitler, because he wants to teachers to contribute to their retirement and health care costs, while limiting collective bargaining to their salary. all the while you are suggesting its somehow going to lead to a 10 hour workday and slave driver principals. its fear card 101.

He's all but eliminating collective bargaining. That's what's prompted the protests.

You really come across here as practically a baa-lamb when it comes to the good will of employers. No, state laws do not replace unions, as anyone who has followed the fortunes of workers in non-unionized regions will tell you. South Carolina's laws against collusion, for instance, did not prevent the Chamber of Commerce from violating that law routinely and openly as a way of luring companies into the area. Nor do laws promoting worker safety get enforced when the only strong political forces in an area are businesses with an interest in seeing those laws flouted.

He's all but eliminating collective bargaining

he is limiting collective bargaining to salaries, giving teachers a choice about paying union dues, and having a vote every year to certify the union. and for that he is being compared to hitler, and you are suggesting the return to a 10 hour workday, and a bunch of slave driving principals. that is nothing but fearmongering.

The man is hostile to unions and doing his best to destroy them.

Anyone who imagines a 10-hour workday is unthinkable today is beyond naive.

The man is hostile to unions and doing his best to destroy them.

sure, because the legislation in wisconsin is definitely going to destroy unions. fearmongering is about all you have isn't it?

Anyone who imagines a 10-hour workday is unthinkable today is beyond naive

anyone who thinks this bill in wisconsin is going to lead to a 10 hour workday is delusional.

Teachers already have on average 10 hour workdays, a good part of it uncompensated. In addition to time spent on class and administrative work, they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents. Your histrionics about the unlikelihood of a 10 hour workday is downright comic. THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

Teachers already have on average 10 hour workdays, a good part of it uncompensated.

teachers also get a two and half month summer break, a two week christmas break, a week long spring break, all government holidays, and in service days. they are also paid a yearly salary.

they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents.

OMG the horrors of having a job! lets not pretend that teachers have it rough paft.

THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

by that standard, most jobs already have it. and students! OMG, we need a student union to protect us against those evil teachers!!

Paft: they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents.
waf: OMG the horrors of having a job! lets not pretend that teachers have it rough paft.

Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.

Waf: by that standard, most jobs already have it. and students! OMG, we need a student union to protect us against those evil teachers!!

Uh, no. I've taught and I've done other jobs over the past 25 years, and those other jobs did not demand the same level of take-home work that teachers face. Yeah, students get homework. Teachers have to grade as many as 30 homework papers a night, AND they draw up the lesson plans and deal not just with the parents of all or many of their students. And by the way, many of those teachers don't spend those summers relaxing. They go to conferences, attend classes, and otherwise gear up for the school year.

Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.

no, im just demonstrating that your little sob stories about teachers having to do their job are pathetic.

Teachers have to grade as many as 30 homework papers a night

OMG paft?! they have to grade 30 papers! oh the horrors! what do you think most business people do when they get home from work?

AND they draw up the lesson plans and deal not just with the parents of all or many of their students

i know paft, teachers just have it so rough. they actually have to teach. can you believe it?

They go to conferences, attend classes, and otherwise gear up for the school year.

you're talking to someone who grew up with a teacher as a mother, has a sister who teaches, and has a whole slew of family friends who teach. i see the reality of teaching first hand. your little sob stories are pathetic attempts at making the teaching profession seem like an overly burdensome profession. its just not the reality of the situation.

waf: Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.
waf: no, im just demonstrating that your little sob stories about teachers having to do their job are pathetic.

It's about how difficult and demanding the job is, WAF.

waf: OMG paft?! they have to grade 30 papers! oh the horrors! what do you think most business people do when they get home from work?

Sometimes they relax and have dinner. Sometimes they do a bit of extra work on the side. Most who are paid at the rate teachers are paid do not spend several hours poring over take home work. And yes, grading 30 papers a night is extraordinarily difficult and time consuming, especially when those papers involve essays and complex answers that have to be assessed.

waf: you're talking to someone who grew up with a teacher as a mother, has a sister who teaches, and has a whole slew of family friends who teach. i see the reality of teaching first hand.

And yet you were unaware that teachers average 50 work hours a week? Weird.

It's about how difficult and demanding the job is

and your exaggerating the difficulties of the job for emotional effect. i mean honestly, how many careers can say they get two and half months off in the summer, 2 weeks off in the winter, and a week off in the spring? all of it paid.

And yet you were unaware that teachers average 50 work hours a week?

i was unaware the teachers were not quite fairly compensated for the jobs that they do. and if you really think that all teachers average 50 hours a week, you're out of touch with reality.

Paft: And yet you were unaware that teachers average 50 work hours a week?
waf: i was unaware the teachers were not quite fairly compensated for the jobs that they do. and if you really think that all teachers average 50 hours a week, you're out of touch with reality.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but, yes, most teachers average 50 hours of work a week. And if you were unaware that your relatives were NOT being paid for the hours they spent grading papers and drawing up lesson plans, then you plainly know jack about what their jobs involved.

most teachers average 50 hours of work a week

maybe during the 37 weeks that they work.

And if you were unaware that your relatives were NOT being paid for the hours they spent grading papers and drawing up lesson plans.

of course they are. its part of being paid salary. you're paid for a job, not by the hour.

then you plainly know jack about what their jobs involved

sure paft, whatever you say.

No, they are not compensated for the hours they spend in work outside of the school. And your earlier wild emoting about how unlikely it is that anyone would have to work 10 hours a day indicates that, in spite of having relatives who are teachers, you really are unaware of what teaching involves.

they are not compensated for the hours they spend in work outside of the school

yes they are, its called a salary.

And your earlier wild emoting about how unlikely it is that anyone would have to work 10 hours a day

no paft, i was referring to the normal working week for hourly employees. its well known that many salaried employees work more than 40 hours a week.

indicates that, in spite of having relatives who are teachers, you really are unaware of what teaching involves.

right paft, whatever you say.

The fact that teachers are salaried employees does not mean they are compensated for working beyond their established work hours. And teachers are actually more likely than other salaried employees to work at home and over the weekends.

The fact that teachers are salaried employees does not mean they are compensated for working beyond their established work hours

yes it does. a salaried employee is paid to do a job. they are not paid by the hour. thats just how it works. deal with it.

Salaried employees can still get overtime for work done outside the officially allotted weekly timeframe.

You were wrong.

Deal with it.

Salaried employees can still get overtime for work done outside the officially allotted weekly timeframe.

yet teachers do not get paid overtime. you know why? because their job description was well known when teachers negotiated their salaries. deal with it paft. your sob stories are pathetic. .

You've completely lost track of this argument.

The teachers aren't protesting because they're not paid for that overtime. They're protesting because they don't want to lose their right to collective bargaining.

The issue of overtime and compensation came up because you were going on and on about how the idea of someone having a ten hour workday was just crazy-talk, why, you insisted, that would NEVER happen, and it's fear-mongering to say it would!

Now you've switched to emoting about how NATURAL a 10 hour workday is for teachers. Suddenly as 10 hour workday isn't crazytalk. It's to be expected!

You don't see how silly this makes you look?

You've completely lost track of this argument.

no paft, i was addressing your response.

They're protesting because they don't want to lose their right to collective bargaining.

thats special.

how the idea of someone having a ten hour workday was just crazy-talk, why, you insisted, that would NEVER happen

no paft, i already explained to you that i was talking about the normal work week for hourly employees. did you lose track of the argument?

Suddenly as 10 hour workday isn't crazytalk. It's to be expected!

as i already explained, its well known that salaried employees often work more than 40 hours a week.

NATURAL a 10 hour workday is for teachers

its natural for a lot of salaried employees. a 37 week year is not though.

You don't see how silly this makes you look?

no, i see how poorly you have been comprehending the discussion. i can't say im surprised.

waf: thats special.

More histrionics. Does emoting like this make you feel better?

waf: no paft, i already explained to you that i was talking about the normal work week for hourly employees.

Actually, you were insisting a 10 hour work day was a ridiculous idea, period, and even went so far as to say "ive never had to work a 10 hour day in the private sector."

10 hour work days are the norm for teachers.

Does emoting like this make you feel better?

no, but i think its pretty special that teachers are voicing their concerns. we also have a democratic process, for the rest of the taxpayers to voice theirs. deal with it.

Actually, you were insisting a 10 hour work day was a ridiculous idea, period

no, i was saying that you are a fearmonger for suggesting that this bill in wisconsin is going to lead to a 10 hour work day for hourly workers.

10 hour work days are the norm for teachers

perhaps for some. not for all. a 9 month work year is also the norm. they have it so rough don't they paft? i can almost hear the violin.

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paft.livejournal.com - 2011-02-22 19:58 (UTC) - Expand

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Salaried employees can still get overtime for work done outside the officially allotted weekly timeframe.

No, they don't. That's the definition of salaried compared to hourly. Or exempt versus non-exempt if you prefer that terminology, it means the same thing as the layman's terms.

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