The "H" word

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

And how the accusation of can get in the way of reasonable discussion.

Definition:"Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.


I also like what Samuel Johnson had to say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy.

Now I admit that being called a hypocrite is one of my hot buttons, but it seems to me that the word, or the insinuation is thrown around much too freely based on a disagreement where one is willing to compromise and the (name caller)other isn't. The immediate example is the "abortion" thread from yesterday It seems that allowing for the justification of an abortion in certain cases, when one is pro life, makes one a hypocrite. To me that is just putting an end to the argument and walking away feeling superior.
More examples:




Samuel Johnson uses drinking. I use smoking: Because I smoke, "preaching" against the negatives and urging people not to start does not make me a hypocrite....it probably makes me stupid for not quitting, but I digress.

If a person advocates "family values" and has an affair, does that make them a hypocrite, or just a weak willed person?
I've heard homo-sexuals who were against gay marriage called hypocrites (especially during the prob 8 debate) how does that follow, under the definition.

I could probably give many more examples, but this has gotten too long as it is so I will make my point. While I enjoy the occasional "drive by snark" as much as anyone, I'm of the opinion that certain pejoratives are too frequently used to end discussion. Sheesh when your emotional diatribe trumps my supposed hypocrisy

Comments

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

True, too many terms tend to lose some of their value the more frequently they're used. Like 'nazi', 'socialist', 'fascist', 'communist', 'tyranny', 'evil', and yes, 'hypocrite' too. The list is really long.

Would it be too inappropriate if I reminded of the list of stupid arguments that need to die (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/211129.html)?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Nope!

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I oppose this. I think hypocrisy is an important argument that should remain as an option in a political or moral debate. I don't agree with the person calling geezer it in that thread, but I think he had a right to do so, and I am actually *distinctly* objecting to putting it on a stupid argument list. It would make the community sillier.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Definition:"Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.

Curious. I always considered Hypocrisy to be behaving one way yourself while condemning others for the same behavior.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I'd call that inconsistency.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Because I smoke, "preaching" against the negatives and urging people not to start does not make me a hypocrite....it probably makes me stupid for not quitting, but I digress.

That would totally make you a hypocrite; if you start talking about how others are too weak to quit and how they should be punished for not quitting.

The word has a meaning, and its useful. Is expecting people to "walk their talk" too high a standard?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

"That would totally make you a hypocrite; if you start talking about how others are too weak to quit and how they should be punished for not quitting."

I'm not sure how you got that from my statement.

I agree the word is useful, what I am saying it is not always applicable. I personally try to watch my "talk" since I have never been able to completely live up to the standards I have set for myself.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

It is not hypocrisy for a person who commits an error to warn others not to make the same mistake. It is not hypocrisy for a person to express the sincerely held belief that his own actions were wrong, and that if others do the same thing, then they would be doing wrong as well.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I think the issue people are keying in on isn't the position itself, so much as the tag we give it. For instance, the term "pro-life". The term "pro-life" as a name for a position on abortion can be hypocritical and "hence a kind of lie" because "pro-life" attempts to tag the issue with positive connotations, while ignoring the truth of being "pro-life". Being "pro-life" doesn't make you a defender of "life", it just makes you against abortion. The hypocrisy is in attempting to cast your position as a greater principle, when it isn't, as evidenced by other opinions and positions. So the hypocrisy at play is in how we propagandize and name things in order to take the high ground.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Fair point, but could not the same thing be said of the term "pro choice"?
(not justifying by using, "well the other guys do it", since I think I agree, at least in principle)

[thies.livejournal.com]

if it was a single affair, sure it's an inconsistency and good tabloid fodder. If it's a lifestyle of affairs, divorces and generally not giving a fuck about "family values" then advocating the same as a political platform to be elected on is hypocritical. I'M LOOKING AT YOU NEWT GINGRICH.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to be general and you have to go get specific :D

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Good question, three things:
a) We should limit the notion of "hypocrisy" when there is an actual contradiction between what you claim to believe and how you actually act. As you note, while I find it odd for a person to be gay and to oppose gay marriage, there's no inherent contradiction in not being in favour of it.

b) If being a hypocrite means believing A but not acting in accordance with A, then it's a standard that we all fail, all the time. But I don't think that's an interesting moral failing. If I say, "we should never be rude to people on the internet" and you point out that I'm often rude to people in the internet, I think you've caught being human, and I'm happy to acknowledge that I don't live up to the standards that I think one should live up to. Is that hypocrisy? Well, if so, then we're all hypocrites, for we all recognize moral standards that we fail to meet. (I think maybe I'm just reiterating what you and Samuel Johnson are getting at)

c) I think hypocrisy is an issue or an interesting accusation when we pretend that we're following some principle and castigating others for failing to follow it when, in fact, we're not actually following the principle and/or unwilling to subject ourselves to the same expectations that we subject others to. For example, if I say "geezeralso should be banned because he's regularly rude to people", and you could then point out instances in which I was rude, then I think that's hypocrisy of a pernicious sort. There I'm implicitly pretending that I not only believe in the standard but also follow it quite rigorously, when in fact I don't.

[singlethink.livejournal.com]

I disagree with your example in a) but I get your point.

I also think that the definition of hypocrisy should include holding two conflicting opinions simultaneously. An example might be believing that the sole purpose of marriage is procreation while simultaneously being in favor of a specific type of marriage that does not fulfill that purpose (gay marriage, marriage involving a post-menopausal woman, marriage involving an infertile partner, etc.), regardless of that person's marital status.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

See, most of the time calling someone a hypocrite is a sign less of being able to refute the other guy's argument than a sign that the other guy doesn't live up to his own argument. However there are some cases, like political leaders who inveigh about the evils of certain practices like drinking and gay sex who privately get smashed while having sex with other men who deserve to be fully called on it. The only thing worse than a whore who gets religion is one who claims to have religion while still making money in a brothel.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Why is a whore who gets religion a thing to be considered at the "worse" end of a scale?

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I would say that the key to most of what you're referring to lies in the details. Preaching one thing while doing another is definitely hypocrisy, textbook definition actually. There is a difference between passively standing for family values, by for instance being a family man in a family valued household etc, while slipping up, and being a politician who actively comes down on people who he deems breaking family values, while he himself secretly breaks them too. The first example could be called human weakness, the second is textbook hypocrisy.
Also, your gay example is flawed. If the gay person was married to a same sex person and then against gay marriage, it would likely make him/her a hypocrite, if they're not, they're just a gay person against gay marriage.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Actually I think you understood what I was trying to say. People that are called hypocrites aren't always. just "a gay person against gay marriage" :D

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

also, um, you seem like a good person, but this post is a little..butthurt, for lack of better expressions. While there might have been hyperbole involved in calling you a hypocrite, there was also a factual angle (whether anyone agrees or not), and you actually handled it in that thread, as far as I remember. People throw around lots of different words in a political dispute, and I too react when there is no factual grounds what so ever (like moron, dumbass, asshole and the like), but hypocrite is very specific to certain conditions, and it could actually be stated that those conditions were in place in that thread, at least for discussion. I personally don't see you as a hypocrite for your stance, but I will argue that the term could be put up for discussion with you, over there in that post.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Well I would disagree of course. And by my posted definition I am correct as per my arguments on that other post.
As for butthurt, I don't know, I guess it depends on how pejorative you mean that term. I think of it as more of frustration, and I admit that the term does bother me.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Hypocrisy is a fallacious argument. Why is it used? Because you don't actually have to counter the accusation if you can just make people of the opinion the other person might do it too.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I think of it more as an accusation to limit or negate anothers arguments, but that might be what you said :D (my mind is kind of blurring at the moment from being in 2 discussions at the same time, I think I'll go do some house repairs :D)

[anadinboy.livejournal.com]

i dunno. im a big animal lover, but not a vegitarian or vegan. Some veggie could chastise me about that.

kids call their parents out all the time on this kind of thing, and the adult just says "do as i say, not as i do"

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

. im a big animal lover, but not a vegitarian or vegan.

That's not necessarily an example of hypocrisy, but if you're buying your meat that's the output of standard meat processing practices it almost certainly is.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

One of my new favorite foods is The Hypocrite.

It's a veggie burger with bacon.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Considering your meat content standards (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/372475/january-27-2011/gordita-supreme-court), that doesn't sound much like an oxymoron.

[caerfrli.livejournal.com]

If you believe abortion is killing a human being (which I don't), I don't see where you have a lot of room for compromise just because the mother was raped. If her life is endanger, that might be a different story.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

My stance is that in the case of rape a DNC would be a method of self defense.
With that being said, if it would have happened to my wife, she would have not had a DNC.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Hypocrisy is that flaw everyone but me possesses. Easy enough.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I admit I've noticed that about you :D

[dwer.livejournal.com]

Being anti-abortion, but recognizing that there are some instances where abortion is justified isn't hypocrisy. Publicly standing up against abortion and legislating against it while making sure your daughter gets her abortion in a clinic quietly without any fuss IS hypocrisy.

Preaching against the gay "lifestyle" but saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" isn't hypocrisy. Preaching against the gay "lifestyle" while having gay orgies in secret IS hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is have a public morality that you break in private.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure I agree with you completely, however I do have reservations.
I'm just not sure if they are because of what you wrote, or more likely because it feels strange to agree with you :D