Obama/faith

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

It is not unreasonable to believe that Obama is not a Christian. To state that a person is an idiot for thinking so is a disservice to reason itself.  We are rational beings and we all have to look at the evidence available to us.  Here is why I do not believe he is a Christian.

 

Obama slips on TV: 'My Muslim faith':

"What I was suggesting – you're absolutely right that John McCain has not talked about my Muslim faith. And you're absolutely right that that has not come."

Stephanopoulos immediately interrupted Obama, stating, "Christian faith."

"My Christian faith," Obama quickly said.

We all make slips of the tongue…. This one was just more unfortunate than most Freudian slips.

"they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

-          Sen. Obama

If Obama shared the same regards for the Christ-god as the people of Pennsylvania would he demagogue their religion? Is his upper class Christianity somehow better or does he not follow the same messiah?

 

“perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering,"

http://www.sfexaminer.com/politics/NASA_s-new-mission_-Building-ties-to-Muslim-world-97817909.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/nasa-chief-obama-wanted-me-to-make-muslims-feel-good-about-their-history.html <- video

-          Charlie Bolden NASA Administrator

Of course the Obama Administration denies this but why would he lie?  If Obama was such a devote Christian why would he be reaching out to Muslims a great deal. Perhaps this is merely world politics

Because I like bullet points:

·         Obama doesn’t go to church on Sunday he golfs

·         Obama attended church 3 times his first year as President.

·         He doesn’t not have an official church he attends anymore

·         His father and stepfather were Muslim

·         His mother was not extremely religious one way or another (apparently she wasn’t a true ‘atheist’)

 “Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he’s also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.”

-Obama

http://www.christianandamerican.com/obama-discusses-his-christian-faith-in-interview.html

This just doesn’t jive with how most Christians feel about the Christ-god.

"One of the great strengths of the United States," the President said, "is ... we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."

-Obama

"The Muslim Call to Prayer is one of the Prettiest Sounds on Earth"

-Obama

This quote, and the rest of this post, doesn’t prove he isn’t a Christian. That’s between him and the Christ-god. However, it should be enough to forgive those who don’t know or don’t believe Obama is a Christian. To insult those who feel he may be a Muslim or not religious is to ignore Obama’s actions and words. Nothing about him screams Christian piety to me.

Comments

[weswilson]

...

are you kidding me?

All one has to do is read anything the man has written about his faith to see what he believes. Taking ridiculous soundbites from extraneous sources to try and concoct a non-existent agenda is truther crap.

Do you agree that the standard you have set here makes it perfectly logical to believe that we didn't land on the moon or that Bush was behind 9/11?

[rogerdr.livejournal.com]

I don't know about you, but I'm almost ready to go to thew moon to get away from this insanity.

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

dude, there's nothing wrong with being a muslim. unless you're obama..

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I argee that there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim. The purpose of this post was to show it is not unreasonable to think Obama is not a Christian or that he could even be a Muslim.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I think the quote was a complete gaffe. Not representative of anything honestly.

[rogerdr.livejournal.com]

1) How do a few cherry-picked statements that are only suggestive out of context or obliquely measure up against his continuous protestations of his Christian faith? If the Pope mistakenly said "apostasy" instead of "Apostolic", would you think that he's secretly Protestant?

2) You seem to be assuming that there's something worse about being Muslim, but I think history plays no favorites between the two.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

1) Methinks the President doth protest too much.

2) You are missing te point of the post. I feel that his religion should not be unquestionable because, as you put it these "few cherry-picked statements ".

I suppose I could have looked up more but this was plenty

[koneko-desu.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit confused, is there a law in the US that only a Christian can be president or that Muslims are forbidden to be president? I mean, as a non-US citizen I don't really care who is in the White House and I personally never understood the Obama worship either, but even so...who cares if he's Muslim? Who cares if he's Christian, Buddhist, Shinto or whatever other religion there exists in this world?

I thought the US always boasted over how it accepts and tolerates all religions, and yet the president of this supposedly amazing country of freedoms is getting bashed over his supposed religion. Seriously, being Christian doesn't automatically mean one would be a good president, being Muslim doesn't mean one's going to bring apocalypse to the country either.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

You're missing the point of the post "It is not unreasonable to believe that Obama is not a Christian."

To clarify it doesn't matter what faith if any he has, only that if one thought he was Muslim or non-religious vs. Christian their intellect should not be lampooned because there is reasonable suspicion.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

It's unreasonable to require elected officials subscribe to certain faiths in the land of the "free".

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

It's not required, just expected.

Re: Your bullet points.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

Obama doesn’t go to church on Sunday he golfs

That tells me he likes to golf.

Obama attended church 3 times his first year as President.

That tells me he's not militantly religious, and isn't controlled by a religious agenda. Very refreshing to see in a politician.

He doesn’t not have an official church he attends anymore

Even better. Honestly, it's tiresome to see politicians parading their religions like a reason to vote for them.

His father and stepfather were Muslim

My father was Jewish. I'm not. My mother was Catholic. I'm not. So what's your point? I see this as indicating that he was exposed to more than one culture as a child... something I wish more Americans experienced.

His mother was not extremely religious one way or another (apparently she wasn’t a true ‘atheist’)

I'm glad he wasn't raised by a religious fanatic. It gave him more opportunity to follow his own conscience and discover his own sense of spirituality if he so desired.

Re: Your bullet points.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Actually, one of the main reasons he doesn't go to services on Sunday morning is that his presence is too disruptive for the other parishioners. Its not conducive to a good experience for them or for him.

Besides, when you're President, you can order communion in.

[montanaisaleg.livejournal.com]

I'm going to cherry pick from your cherry picking:
This just doesn’t jive with how most Christians feel about the Christ-god.
Who cares about what "most Christians feel about the Christ-god?" Most Christians probably think homosexuality is a sin, but that doesn't make gay Christians any less Christian.

"The Muslim Call to Prayer is one of the Prettiest Sounds on Earth"
Again, who cares? I think "Amazing Grace" is a beautiful song, but I'm no less atheist because of it.

My personal belief is that religion probably doesn't play much of a part in Obama's everyday life, but, due to the nature of American politics, he's got to at least pretend that it does.

[weswilson]

Here's an actual news piece on his faith... way more enlightening than this drivel.

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/11/finding-his-faith.html

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

While it is true that he may not be a Christian or at least not much of one and it is reasonable to question is Christian Faith, Those who believe or suspect he may be a closet Muslim are Idiots with a capital I.

If you tell me that he is a-religious, or an Atheist or an Agnostic and that his supposed Christian beliefs are just to keep up appearances for the dumbmasses so he can get elected I'm willing to listen and will likely even agree on many points.

On the other hand if you tell me that he is secretly a Muslim that has been in hiding as some kind of Manchurian candidate I'm gonna call you a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I think we agree on the purpose of this post. Thank you.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Has the President been observed praying to Mecca? It's several times a day so surely someone would have noticed by now. No? Didn't think so.

How the right imagines the Muslim community center.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Do you believe or care if the Presient is Christian?

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

It is not unreasonable to believe that Obama is not a Christian.

LOL, no.

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

Seriously, jihadwatch? Christianandamerican?

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

I've often said Obama's behavior is one of the biggest reasons people don't believe him.

Whatever he believes, he's doing it wrong.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Nomination for quotes page.

[ytterbius.livejournal.com]

You're on crack.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

1) Given that people were already claiming that he was a SEKRIT MUSLIN HIVEMIND agent, how is it not impossible that he was referring to that and to McCain's attempts to run a reasonable campaign.

2) Yes, he would denigrate their religion given that it's a time-honored practice of the rulers to denigrate religions of the masses. Only moreso since the Enlightenment.

3) Neither did George W. Bush do any of those things. Was he a SEKRIT ATHIEST?

4) Technically speaking it's more accurate than most of the lessons I've had taught. Few Christians these days bother with differentiating between say, Arians, Anti-Chalcedonians, modalists, or what have you. We're too busy bashing gays and women who choose to get abortion to care about theology any more.

5) He is also quite accurate here. The United States has never been the Islamic Republic of Iran, and we are too smart to try rooting our state in the doctrines of a religion.

6) Actually it can be rather pretty, much as the Tridentine or Byzantine Masses.

And last but not least......

I'd rather be ruled by a wise Turk than a foolish Christian sayeth Martin Luther. Something tells me people who advocate a Christian theocracy don't realize that since the largest single denomination in the USA these days is Roman Catholicism that any such theocracy would in fact be an Ultramontane state right out of the Middle Ages.

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

The Hindutva zealots who I criticize on Internet forums and news websites allege that my disagreement with them on issues such as violence against Christians proves that I'm actually a closet Christian who receives huge sums of money from cash-rich Christian organizations in the U.S. for spreading Christianity. Do you think it is unreasonable on their part to say so?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure one could consider the $119.00 I sent you via PayPal a "huge sum." But thanks for the good work anyway.

[thedinglestarry.livejournal.com]

The thing that tells me my country is doing it far more right than yours at least in one way:

Tony Blair did not reveal his staunch Catholic faith until after he left office for fear of being seen as a fanatic; there are several openly atheist major politicians, and those in power who are religious do not shout about it, and are allowed to question their faith or admit that it is at times shaky and difficult, without being dragged over hot coals by the media / opponents.

Whereas, nobody seems to be able to be elected American President without parading their active church-going unambiguous Christian faith in front of the electorate. Ew.

In general the British electorate does not feel that you need to believe in Jesus to be able to make sound decisions for the country. This is a very good thing, and the reason this Muslim/Christian/atheist?!/just-come-clean-about-your-real-beliefs-Obama! crap would never happen in the UK.

The irony is that we have a state church and you don't. Still, culturally, we're doing it right.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

He didn't reveal it because legally no British Prime Minister can be a practicing Catholic, a proscription dating to the enlightened days of Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector. Sorry, that is ignorance talking. You're not only not doing it right, but at least Boston abandoned its atavistic laws where you still retain a 17th Century law well into the 21st Century.

Refutations.

[chron-job.livejournal.com]

Arguing over whether Obama is or is not a Christian appears pointless on multiple levels, not least because there is no gold standard definition of Christianity to measure him against. Also, being an Atheist, one might think I have no iron in this particular fire.

Nonetheless, I note that many of your points take the form of "If he was a real Christian, why would he do X?" all the while the definition of "real Christian" is unstated and presumed. For instance, in your Nasa Administrator incident point, you ask If Obama was such a devote Christian why would he be reaching out to Muslims a great deal.

This argument is only consistent if we presume that devoted Christians should not want to reach out to Muslims. Why is that? Why would we presume it? Similarly, in this video from the accidentally hilariously named "Christian Anti-Defamation Commission", Rev. Don Hamer is clear and straightforward when he says that Obama cannot be a real Christian, because Obama does not consign all Jews and Muslims to hell, and believes all faiths are relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBJo8b5-kC0

At least Rev. Hamer is clear on where his definition of Christianity comes from (rigid adherence to biblical text) and in that I find his unsullied fundamentalism refreshing. I'm suspicious of presumed and unstated definitions, because they are notoriously mobile in such a way as to suit the argument at hand.

I think the argument over Obama's religious leanings is relevant to me, and requires my response, because the debate reveals a political and cultural tactic that I find onerous.

> This just doesn’t jive with how most Christians feel about the Christ-god.

An unprovable assertion, given a lack of a the 'definitional' Christian. More to the point, its political import is to assert the primacy of one definition over any other.

In a nutshell, conservatives strive to own the 'brand' Chrsitianity, and they get to use it as a club to beat their political opponents with, not the other way around.

Are there people who call themselves Christians who don't go to church much? (Especially when there past church attendance had been such a cause of manufactured controversy) Of course. Are there people who call themselves Christians who do not believe in Biblical inerrancy? Of course. Are there people who call themselves Christians who think there are other means to salvation than Christ? Of course. Are these positions inconsistent with other Christians? Of course.

These same arguments used in the same way have been used by Protestants to say that Catholics aren't Real Christians, and vice versa. That being the case, would you also say, as you did of Obama "It is not unreasonable to believe that a Catholic is not a Christian"

Well, its also 'not unreasonable' to look at such arguments and see the bigotry behind the facade.

Re: Refutations.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

there is no gold standard definition of Christianity to measure him against.

Actually, there is. It's called the Nicene Creed.

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

Man, the nutters are going to have a field day with that one.

[tridus.livejournal.com]

"Nothing about him screams Christian piety to me."

Could say the same about most Christians I know. It's a self-given label that is largely meaningless.

What we need is a scale of Christian-ness and to see where he fits relative to other Christians.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I like this.

Given this, is it unreasonable to think he is not Christian?

[thies.livejournal.com]

that also means there are really 57 states

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

I saw someone actually try to defend that by listing four territories, a couple of islands in the Pacific and the District of Columbia.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Silly question coming from the backward Balkans:

What does it matter what faith your president has, and if he has any?

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

It matters because a lot of voters are stupid enough to think it matters.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

I just take people on their word when it comes to their religion since its not like it matters nor are there real standards to judge it by. I mean outside of very organized (and trademarked!) religions like Scientology, no one has any more right that any other to decide the criteria for membership in a religion.

Its a pretty stupid thing to care about or waste time on.

[rogerdr.livejournal.com]

Considering the schizophrenic array of what people in the US consider "Christian", it's also practically impossible to tell the difference between when someone's lying about having a faith that he professes and when his faith includes a measure of duplicity justified by service to a "greater good".

Re: Just want to ask...

[my-wits-end.livejournal.com]

It matters because America is a Christian nation, mmkay.

[usekh.livejournal.com]

As he has repeatedly said he is a Christian then yes it is entirely unreasonable.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

We tell kids repeatedly that Washington was our first president yet Lincoln keeps getting the nod. These things happen.