To troll or not to troll

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

*puts on attention whore Mod hat*

We mods can't help but notice how bad the trolling and the flaming has gotten these days. Sometimes the posts themselves can be trollish, but it's predominantly in comments where we find the worst offenders these days. This problem is partly the fault of the mods, we tend to punish those who aren't as good at trolling as others.

I see two scenarios. One, we start to clamp down hard on the snide remarks as well as the offending posts. It can be done but it won't be easy. We have a good diverse group of mods from different viewpoints in order to help avoid bias but there's always going to be at least some. We're human capable of human error.

The downside of this, aside from needing to mod a hell of a lot more than we used to (thus ending my slacking ways) is that we'd be putting limits on expression. Sometimes someone says something so mind-numbingly stupid that you feel a pressing need to mock them on some level, and I'm worried that if we didn't allow at least some sort of recourse in that regard that we'd start to lose members. What some call "immature behavior" others call "fun".

There's also the issue of where exactly we draw the line. Some people are more sensitive than others, hell some people go out of their way to be offended. So if we seek to make our community resemble 4chan less we're going to need to come up with more guidelines.

The other scenario is that we leave things be. Post/comment stupid shit at your own risk. We'll still try to discourage people from attacking the person rather than the opinion (with suspensions/bannings to the worst offenders). It means now and then our fine community will dip into cesspool-like levels, and this may discourage new members from joining who have intelligent things to say but have no tolerance for douchebaggery.

On a side note, I've noticed that I for one will give longtime members/regular contributors more of a pass than I do for someone new. For what it's worth it didn't start out as a conscious decision and I'll work on correcting that.

We are the top political discussion community in LiveJournal IMO and I want to keep it that way. Please give us your opinions/suggestions because it's going to help determine where we go from here. As Robocop would say, thank you for your cooperation.

Comments

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Hic sunt dracones.

The only thing worse than under moderation is over moderation. If you want to more closely on posts, fine. I'd be careful about consistency, etc, but you should be able to decide what shows up on the main page. But if you have to get into a pissing match and start throwing ban hammers around for snarky comments and general douchebaggery, well... this won't be the best political community on LJ anymore. It will be [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com].

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

This has been in discussion a while in part BECAUSE we don't want that to happen. We're extremely aware of that line, and it may take the community to let us know if we're crossing it.

Or worse yet, ONTD_P.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

0_o

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I think we need to attract more new people to the community. There is a such thing as knowing everyone (and what they will say) too well it makes the conversations predictable and fosters grudge fests. I also wonder if it might seem too insular to new outsiders?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I think this is an excellent observation. I know that was the case at [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com].

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

This country community was founded by immigrants and it thrives on immigration. It's always hard for a newcomer when he goes to a new place but in my observation this country, eh I mean, this comm has been rather welcoming to newcomers. Of course it'd be nice if they look around the place a bit before starting to participate, it would be very helpful for them to catch the dynamics of the place. We saw a recent post turning into a troll post, and not just because it was the OP's purpose (who was a newcomer by the way). He put the bait, and predictably, many of us got caught in it. The distance to the rock bottom is very short in such cases. I'm sure we could do a lot better than we did up there. If we stop being trolls to the troll, and let the mods do their job, the trolls might soon find out their tactics don't work well here. So far we haven't been very helpful in that, with very few exceptions.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I think the job by the mods is well done now. Certain outrageous comments are taken care of without really restricting the community.
Normally I don't take troll bait, but sometimes I just get irritated that people can hide cowardly behind different aliases and say whatever comes out, and I respond, thinking that at least I respond with my real username.

but yeah, throwing feces back at a baby still makes you..at least not an adult, on that occasion.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions." - Thomas Jefferson

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

You reminded me that I should make me a Robocop icon.

Seriously, my position is up there below Futurebird's comment.

Nairi also has a point. Maybe it's best if you guys do your work without too much fanfare. The work is still being done, and we're still happy that we have our allegedly anarcho-libertarian free-for-all snark pit discussion forum to ourselves. Win-win.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Most of our modding IS behind the scenes. The vast majority of my PMs involve contact with someone or another regarding behavior in tp.

To me it's easy to see your paradigm.

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

Let me put it for you thus:
If you people feel you a bit itred one with another knwing exactly what's gonna be said by whom, you need a fresh bood.
If you have a fresh blood you can't stay the same, I shan't even mention the waves of Irish, Italian etc immigratnts to US.
You can't be 'a little bit pregnant', you either have minds open and develop or keep comfort and eventually die.
Easy, isn't it?

I agree.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Hence, this post. Take it as the regular setting the clock right.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

There is a natural balance between trolling and communities. Trolling is like a sweet nitrifying bacteria that can help keep the waters clean. The problem, as others have pointed out, is that pretty soon everybody knows everybody else's position and attitude. That gets boring, so people start fucking around to make it more interesting.

Arguing what you don't believe or arguing an extreme position often gets called "trolling". This is wrong, because arguing what you don't believe or arguing a position for the sake of argument is the hallmark of a liberal, public society. If we are to only argue what we think and only along predictable lines, everything stagnates.

And as a wise man once said:

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

In brief, it is undeniable, that, as you have here the most civil, so it is, generally, the most intelligent society; the frequenting whose converse, and observing their discourses and deportment, cannot but civilize our manners, enlarge our understandings, refine our language, teach us a generous confidence and handsome mode of address, and brush off that pudor rubrusticus (as, I remember, Tully somewhere calls it), that clownish kind of modesty frequently incident to the best natures, which renders them sheepish and ridiculous in company.

So that, upon the whole matter, spite of the idle sarcasms and paltry reproaches thrown upon it, we may, with no less truth than plainness, give this brief character of a well-regulated coffee-house (for our pen disdains to be an advocate for any sordid holes, that assume that name to cloak the practice of debauchery), that it is the sanctuary of health, the nursery of temperance, the delight of frugality, an academy of civility, and free-school of ingenuity.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Well, as one of those sometimes-annoying long time members, I'll say this - I won't post bs or macros in posts unless the post itself is obvious fuckwittery and the OP turns out to be one of those unresponsive types or is obviously trolling comments, like that lovely recent pro-misogyny post.

I've noticed lately things like mods in troll posts trying to slow the shitstorm but it's posts that are doing the trolling, not the responses. If someone goes out of their way to be belligerent and insult via generalizations, there's a certain causality to that.

So I think mods need to note the difference between the content/intent of a post and the responses to said post. Now give me my fucking phone call!

/would buy that for a dollar
//only used this icon because I don't have one for Clarence Boddicker

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

I'll need to get me some Robocop icons myself it seems.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I'm undecided. I can see lots of viewpoints on this because we're a pretty diverse group. Some people don't mind a little trolling, and some do. Some don't mind a heated flamey argument, and in fact revel in it, but some hate that sort of thing and would rather avoid the community entirely. Can we have a solution that fits both? I don't know if that's possible.

How possible would it be for mods to closely watch to see more the context of the discussions. i.e. if someone is being belligerent and the other person is not taking it well, step in. If both people are fine with it, don't. If someone is playing victim and flopping around like a soccer player even though the person didn't actually do anything, or if they started the flaming and then suddenly cried foul, the mods of course point and laugh.

If there's a troll post from certain people everyone knows trolls constantly and nobody is taking it hard, let it pass and be mocked for what it is. If someone just posts a very unpopular opinion but they mean it in earnest, try to persuade people to be a little more constructive in their disagreement and point out why it's a horrible idea.

Is this all too subjective? It does put a lot of responsibility on the mods, and I can see it causing lots of problems of people appealing. It moves the community more towards a monarchy and less a community of laws. Do we have the right people to allow that to happen? I honestly don't know if that's a good idea or not.

The interesting thing about internet communities is that they are a different set of circumstances than a real government. Democracy isn't always the best answer. Sometimes mods need to play tyrant. The constitution is their own beliefs, and they are the judges too. I think this is somewhat influencing my beliefs about real world government too. ;)

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking your last sentence was a troll, AND OT and I call foul!!!!

[silver-chipmunk.livejournal.com]

I'm a relative new-comer here, plus I don't post a lot anyway, but here's my experiences for what they're worth.

My first internet experience was on a politically oriented discussion board that was completely unmoderated. It decayed to such levels of vitriol and invective that eventually, after several years, the site owners did install a moderator, but one of such draconian tendencies and intemperent disposition that things got worse instead of better. Eventually the whole site collapsed and was closed.

Currently I hang out on a discussion site that is moderated firmly but fairly. There's a list of rules that posters are expected to adhere to, though they are fairly flexible in wording. It works much, much better than the other approach.

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

I love a good snide comment and I love making good snide comments. If you start banning those, then I'm outtie.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Well at least this community is a hell of a lot friendlier and open than ontd_political. Now THAT is the LJ equivalent to political 4chan!

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Whats this 4chan that everyone keeps talking about? Is it something like the Jackie Chang of action cinema (lots of misdirected kicks but ultimately lulzy)?

I'm so backward, duh...

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

He who moderates best, moderates least, as policratus mentions. If someone's really out of line others will stick up their hands: that's when you have to be Solomon.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

My philosophy is that you should err on the permissive side and let the ridiculous beliefs earn their ridicule. For one thing, it lets people play around while wasting too much energy on predictably dead-end arguments, and for the other, I don't think it cuts too much into the real discussions - I haven't observed much 'leakage' of trolling from the worthless posts onto the worthwhile ones, and I've also seen that someone who posts something initially facepalmy gives a serious response to the first wave of ridicule, the people trolling are usually willing to go into at least a little detail on the substance of why they think the OP deserves this treatment.

Like others have said though, I'm not the one making the tricky decisions.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

This community seems particularly inclined to feed trolls, and posting those macros or whatever they are counts as troll feeding, IMO, I can't help but think that some of these clowns would stop if we'd just ignore ridiculous posts. (I'm not saying I'm innocent of troll feeding, just to be clear.) but maybe mods might also work to discourage troll feeding and they'd have to worry less about stomping out trolls.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'This community seems particularly inclined to feed trolls, and posting those macros or whatever they are counts as troll feeding'

I know I'm not always the most respectful person right off the bat but my particular irritant is some people respond with dismissive ridicule and snark to an earnest point though get indignant when it's turned back on them.

I'm not really friends with anyone in this community and I don't care to be as all that would do is foster an environment where people team up and subconsciously unequal treatment is given. Despite what I'm sure many think, I'm very fair to arguments and to people. Most of my hostility is limited to those I've a long history of arguing with who tend to be disrespectful and dismissive themselves. But I'm rambling off the topic so I'll end that there.

Postings that fail...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... to render unto Caesar should be appropriately censored by the Imperial Censor.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I will note that I tend to defend my beliefs rather strongly to the point I can come across as a bit of a jackass. So I will do my own part to tone that down and come across as less of that. I will still refuse to call evil insanity, though.

[anosognosia.livejournal.com]

Weird, I always got the impression that this place was expressly a trolling community, albeit a politics-themed one. Huh, the more you know.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

It is what you and I and everyone else makes of it.

Also your always is not the same like someone else's always. I don't think you have been around often enough to have a more profound impression.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Look at this and any other community as a tavern. And you guys are the bar-tenders. You are selling a product and we the consumers are using it. First and foremost, you have to ask yourselves what makes this product so attractive? Well, it is different. It's different from debate, it's different from ontd_political, and it's definitely different from politicsforum. Why do people like it? Two reasons.
1) They feel free to discuss any political issues without fear of persecution from politically biased bar-tenders.
2) Most of them can notice your efforts to create a positive and friendly atmosphere - sometimes with more success, other times with less. They can see these efforts are genuine and they like it, so they stay.

Change any of these two components, and your product becomes nothing different from the other taverns. People would ask the question: why am I here and not somewhere else?

Look at trolls as the occasional loud drunkard yelling at people in the tavern. Other bar-tenders would kick him right out the door, but would create a mess in the process, and some people don't like messy situations. Instead, you have chosen negotiation. Try to persuade the guy to stop it, and if he doesn't then yes, call the tough guys standing at the door to throw him out. But if you start telling those clients who are shouting at the drunkard to piss off, instead of focusing on the drunkard, people would think you are tolerating drunkards. Granted, sometimes some clients would start to throw food at him. Then politely separate the sides and restore order. Gently. With negotiation. The drunkard goes out, and everything calms back down.

The most important thing is to preserve the sense of 1) ability to discuss here freely and 2) good intent on part of the bar-tenders.

It's not an easy job, but obviously you're quite capable and are doing it with enthusiasm so everything should be all right.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

2) Most of them can notice your efforts to create a positive and friendly atmosphere - sometimes with more success, other times with less. They can see these efforts are genuine and they like it, so they stay.

If there's any takeaway I hope people get, it's this - we're doing our best and we want to do what's right.

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

I think Fridays should be "anything goes" days.

Troll, macro...bring it on. :D





(This comment has been brought to you by /b/: resistance is futile.)

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Can't help sharig it.

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

I came here at the recommendation of a friend who said this place was full of intelligent, erudite people of varying political beliefs who were capable of having discussions in a respectful and informative way. It has degenerated quite a bit since then, and I have recently considered dropping out. Most of the time I don't even click through to see comments, because they are so predictable. That's not necessarily an indictment of the group, but of society's lack of civility and the general intractability of people's opinions.

I enjoy well-reasoned arguments because I always learn something from a civilized debate of the issues. I learn nothing by reading only opinions that agree with mine. The comments lately have, for the most part, lacked anything resembling value. When people descend to the level of refuting others with mocking or cat macros rather than reason and fact, why bother anymore?