A modest Proposal
7/8/10 14:22![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
geezer-also.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
talkpoliticsI would suggest that anecdotal experiences be accepted into discussions rather than dismissed out of hand.
Given: Lies danged lies and statistics (not to mention charts and graphs) are put forth frequently to prove points; only to be countered by other lies, danged lies and statistics (not to mention more charts and graphs) that prove the opposite.
Given: That most pundits and "experts" are really only giving their anecdotal experiences, even if gathered from a wider range.
Given: That most of us when receiving "facts" we don't agree with demand sources, mostly so we can say: "well of course THEY say that.
Therefore:
Also given: that things vary so much from region to region, and country to country; most things don't fit the "norm".
Also given: That TP is not a court of law or a college classroom (heck I learn more here than I did in most classes....how much of it is correct may be another issue) my positive experience with a tea party rally is just as valid as your negative one, and neither of us should necessarily judge all by a few.
One example on regional type not understanding the other guy based on statistics and reportage.
(oh and this is purely anecdotal)
I have a friend who lives in a small town (less than 100K) in the mid west, he knows one illegal family. Great people and hard working; so he can not understand why I dislike illegal immigration and am against blanket amnesty. My shop is in the middle of "no man's land" between two rival gangs, (low estimate being a 1/3 are illegal)we mostly only put up with dueling graffiti, and the occasional stripped, stolen car to be towed away.
At any rate the purpose of my "modest proposal" is in the hope of better understanding why some of us feel the way we do, with the expectation that we can become kinder and gentler, and hyper-sensitive people like myself will get their feelings hurt a lot less.
Given: Lies danged lies and statistics (not to mention charts and graphs) are put forth frequently to prove points; only to be countered by other lies, danged lies and statistics (not to mention more charts and graphs) that prove the opposite.
Given: That most pundits and "experts" are really only giving their anecdotal experiences, even if gathered from a wider range.
Given: That most of us when receiving "facts" we don't agree with demand sources, mostly so we can say: "well of course THEY say that.
Therefore:
Also given: that things vary so much from region to region, and country to country; most things don't fit the "norm".
Also given: That TP is not a court of law or a college classroom (heck I learn more here than I did in most classes....how much of it is correct may be another issue) my positive experience with a tea party rally is just as valid as your negative one, and neither of us should necessarily judge all by a few.
One example on regional type not understanding the other guy based on statistics and reportage.
(oh and this is purely anecdotal)
I have a friend who lives in a small town (less than 100K) in the mid west, he knows one illegal family. Great people and hard working; so he can not understand why I dislike illegal immigration and am against blanket amnesty. My shop is in the middle of "no man's land" between two rival gangs, (low estimate being a 1/3 are illegal)we mostly only put up with dueling graffiti, and the occasional stripped, stolen car to be towed away.
At any rate the purpose of my "modest proposal" is in the hope of better understanding why some of us feel the way we do, with the expectation that we can become kinder and gentler, and hyper-sensitive people like myself will get their feelings hurt a lot less.
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:25 (UTC)Most cases we argue are 'generally so and so is true' cases.
Ok....but
Date: 7/8/10 21:45 (UTC)Re: Ok....but
Date: 7/8/10 21:57 (UTC)Re: Ok....but
Date: 7/8/10 22:50 (UTC)If I share my experiences with, say cops, with you, and say all cops are good, and you share your experiences with me and say all cops are bad, perhaps we can see that wow, perhaps I have tunnel vision, not all cops are either good or bad....Ok pretty simplistic, but I wasn't saying in the OT that let's all base everything on anecdotal experiences, but that we don't dismiss them as having no validity.
Of course what I really meant was I hate black people, or worse, I may have been suggesting that we try to understand where a person is coming from instead of berating or profaning them (at least until after we try to understand ;) ) ....
I'm sorry I'm still new to the internet, and it's hard for me to grasp that civil discourse is the exception rather than the rule.
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:38 (UTC)I love that!!!!!!
Date: 7/8/10 21:46 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:41 (UTC)And congrats for venturing into posting an actual OP.
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:55 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 22:09 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 05:11 (UTC)Thank you
Date: 8/8/10 15:46 (UTC)Actually we agree much more than you know :D
It's not that I'm obstinate, or enjoy arguing (which I do, but not so much on line)it's that I don't necessarily see the value of typing IAWTC or +1. (oh, and sometimes I'm not clear ;) )
The main reason I don't post is because I want to know I'm going to be around to respond.
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:46 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 21:53 (UTC)Wow
Date: 7/8/10 22:06 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 05:15 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 05:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 22:49 (UTC)An Atheist will dismiss all the many small miracles as coincidence, just as a Theist will grant them more weight and offer them as proof. Conservatives and Liberals are no better or no worse.
Truth is never extreme, but always found between extremes. To say illegal immigration is harmful or helpful to the economy is to take an extreme point of view. In truth, sometimes illegal immigration is helpful, sometimes it's harmful, both in personal anecdotes and in larger scales of proportion.
The point of politics isn't very often to find truth. The point of politics is more commonly to take a position and defend it, often in contradiction to evidence (There are WMD's in Iraq, Obama was born in Kenya, Global Warming will flood the coasts in 5years, Same Sex Marriage will kill families, etc)
If I was to tell you that in April 200 I saw a nuclear bomb on the back of an Iraqi truck, that's anecdotal. Call me a liar. Dismiss my experience. Still doesn't make my experience any less true.
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 23:14 (UTC)I'm beginning to think that perhaps I don't really understand the point of politics :D
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 00:07 (UTC)Where we can argue the pros/cons of illegal immigration, and try to determine facts, the bottom line of our politics is what's personally good for us. You're against illegals, justified by your experience. Illegals hurt your wallet, your safety, etc. I don't have that same experience here.
Professional politicians are paid to represent the people and therefore ought to step away from personal views and weigh the facts as best they can concluding with the determined best position. However, that rarely happens. They're looking out for themselves, trying to rake in as much cash/power and balancing that with job security. Popular positions get more votes.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 01:20 (UTC)Should I write a letter to my congressman?
A congressman has 2 ends
A sitting end, and a thinking end
And since his whole existence depends upon his sest
Why bother friend.
Strangely enough, I hesitate to say I'm categorically against illegals. What bothers me is people who live in areas that have an illegal population of less than one percent don't even try to see the point of view of people who live where it's 10%. Oh well it is what it is.
note: edited to remove a typo which would offend no one but me :D
(no subject)
Date: 7/8/10 22:54 (UTC)That said, I agree with you that anecdotes should not be dismissed out of hand.
For instance, I found this comment thread (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/641817.html?thread=47901209#t47901209) particularly enlightening despite the lack of anything that could be considered "Hard Data".
We've all had experiances that shaped us.
My time in the military imbued me with a certian bias/fatalism
Just as
As datapoints these experiances do have value.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 02:33 (UTC)I do appreciate your understanding the gist of my argument.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 05:15 (UTC)It is possible to explain to a person why their personal experience isn't "proof" that something is true or false without ripping them to shreds.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 00:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 00:56 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 07:28 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 15:16 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 16:44 (UTC)If only others could say the same, yes?
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 05:16 (UTC)Also,
"(heck I learn more here than I did in most classes....how much of it is correct may be another issue)"
Same here. I'd like to nominate this for the daily quote.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 15:54 (UTC)Thank you for catching my point about charts and graphs :D
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 11:58 (UTC)The bottom line is that anecdotes don't disprove stats but stats don't invalidate experience.
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 15:56 (UTC)I wish I'd said that....but it's Ok, I probably will :D
(no subject)
Date: 8/8/10 18:26 (UTC)Translation:
Date: 8/8/10 18:25 (UTC)Therefore, anecdata should be considered equivalent to 'facts'.
Sounds a whole lot like the 24 hour format of a certain foreign-owned news network named after a member species of the Canidae family .
Yeah, I don't buy it.
Re: Translation:
Date: 8/8/10 19:49 (UTC)I read this comment, and thought, darn, another person didn't get what I meant. I would edit the darn thing, but for the life of me, other than a direct statement that "I don't want to get rid of facts" I couldn't figure out why it wasn't clear (that being said, I have acknowledged more than once I am a poor writer, leading us to the conclusion I wouldn't be able to recognize my unclarity anyway :D)
Then I read your agreement with *malasadas*, who I felt got my point as well as possible. So I have decided this was snark, and I'm good with it!