Step by Step:

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So:

Is it inappropriate for Muslims to live near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to work near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to pray in their own homes, if those homes are near ground zero?

What is, then, inappropriate about a group of Muslims coming together and praying together, near ground zero?


The idea of telling people: "NO! You cannot congregate in public and do what you are obviously allowed to (and going to) do in your own homes!"

Is an excellent way to tell Muslims: Hey, America is the enemy! Go kill them!


I thought we were trying to STOP violence. Maybe I'm wrong.


EDIT: Some interesting stats from a poll:


25. Some people say that building a Muslim mosque and cultural center near Ground Zero will foster understanding and teach people that not all Muslims are terrorists; others say that it is an insult to the memory and families of the 9/11 victims - which comes closer to your point of view?

Tot Rep Dem Ind Wht Blk Hisp
Foster understanding 42% 13% 49% 43% 38% 46% 37%
Insult to families 42 77 33 39 51 30 45
BOTH(VOL) 2 2 3 1 2 4 3
NEITHER(VOL) 6 3 5 7 4 7 6
DK/NA 9 5 10 9 6 14 8



Brnx Kngs Man Qns StIsl Men Wom
Foster understanding 39% 39% 54% 39% 22% 43% 41%
Insult to families 45 46 27 40 68 41 42
BOTH(VOL) 1 4 2 2 1 2 3
NEITHER(VOL) 4 4 8 5 5 7 5
DK/NA 11 6 8 14 4 8 10



AGE IN YRS....... NoColl Coll POL PHIL.........
18-34 35-54 55+ Degree Degree Lib Mod Con
Foster understanding 51% 42% 36% 34% 48% 63% 41% 17%
Insult to families 36 42 46 44 40 23 42 68
BOTH(VOL) 2 2 3 3 2 3 2 2
NEITHER(VOL) 4 5 6 6 5 5 6 4
DK/NA 6 9 10 13 5 6 9 9

-http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1302.xml?ReleaseID=1473


So it's old, white, republican, conservatives, w/o a college degree, that live in SI that are most likely to oppose this.

Color me shocked.

Comments

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with this post. I used to live about one block from ground zero. It's a strange place to live since there are only about 30,000 people there at night, but 300,000 in the day. You are outnumbered by office workers.

Still, the community is tight knit and very diverse. When I'd meet people in the park in the morning while they walked there dogs no two of use would be the same ethnicity. It was a joyful place and the community center sounds like a lovely idea.

I don't live downtown anymore. I'm in the Bronx now but I feel the same way.

I feel like the way that people from new york feel should matter.

Like what our mayor said... let me get the quote...

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I know the mayor in favor, I believe you quoted him in the other post.
I tried this line of very simple, very straightforward reasoning with a friend of mine who is leaning against this (he isn't vehemently against it like some) and he saw where I was going from the first question.

Perhaps this line of reasoning will resound with some others too.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Any decent Muslim would have immediately recanted his or her faith the day after 9/11 and become an anti-religionist -- as all truly moral people are.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Yup! Your view is in good company. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JegKCAO6N7I)

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

The anti-mosque argument ougth to habve died after the poll in manhatten revealed that most of the people who would have to deal with it on a daily basis had to problem with it.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

What's this!? Trusting New Yorkers to deal with a New York issue?! That's absurd! That's insane! That's....EXACTLY what small-govt republicans should be clamoring for.

[chemchick.livejournal.com]

I really want to punch whatever reporter felt the need to report on this.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

It's unfair to blame the reporter. They're after ratings. [perhaps blame the system--but personally....]

I blame the idiotic PUBLIC that gives such stories ratings.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I'm having this discussion in a private journal right now - the poster is dragging up everything from Dhimmi taxes to Wahabbism to support his prejudice against the builders of a Muslim Community Center.

I'd love to see this logic applied to the Catholic Church. I mean after all, you have high-level officials not only aware of pedophiles in their employ, but engaged in cover-ups and protections of said criminals. So therefore, the entire RCC and its American members could all be served under RICO laws as part of a criminal conspiracy, funded by those Sunday collection plates and bingo nights. That seems reasonable, right?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I cannot remember who--I want to say Jesse Ventura, but that might well be wrong--someone anyway, on the Bill Maher show suggested that the RCC be brought up on RICO charges.

I [sometimes] have a fiery passion for politics, but it's just painful to try and discuss certain things with certain groups. Bashing my head into a brick wall won't help--but it sometimes feels like it'd be more productive.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I'm always amused by non New Yorkers (that are typically conservative and bash this city and its 'liberal' values) that are so concerned about the placement of a religious center near the WTC site.

[chemchick.livejournal.com]

We should just rename NYC to "Big Gay City! YAY!", NY 69696.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

So:

Is it ok for Christians to live in Mecca?
Is it ok for Christians to pray in Mecca?
Is it ok for Christians to pray in their own homes if those homes are in Mecca?


That said the answer depends on what you mean by "ok"

Do you mean legal? Absolutely.

Do you mean Moral? Hard to say, it would kind of depend on what they were living there for and more importantly what they were praying for.

Is it Socially Acceptable? Well again, that kind of depends on how In your face they are about it and again what they are praying for.


That said, building a large religious center essentially at the site where some of your co-believers committed what is considered by the local populace to be a heinous act and meets the definition of an act of War is not exactly the same as individuals living and praying as they go about their day to day lives.

[thies.livejournal.com]

yo, you live in Mecca or why you keep trying to hold everyone to their standards?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with you on this issue, but the problem is that it feels insensitive to want to build a Mosque so close to the largest instance of Muslim terror on American soil. Choosing that site doesn't really seem like the best PR move on anyone's side.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Building a Sufi mosque near a site of Wahabi terrorism.....

We need to stop painting Muslims with such a broad brush

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'Is it inappropriate for Muslims to live near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to work near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to pray in their own homes, if those homes are near ground zero?

What is, then, inappropriate about a group of Muslims coming together and praying together, near ground zero?'

Substitute white nationalist for muslim and then substitute some site of historical importance where another white nationalist group killed a whole slew of people.

Odd tat when it comes to racial issues the people who say that this isn't offensive are the ones who say that intent isn't as important as the performer should be aware of their perceived sleight.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

white nationalism is inherently racist

are you telling me Islam is inherently violent?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

What do you think about the uproar, long since forgotten, that surrounded the proposed building of a Caramalite Convent adjacent to Auschwitz in the 1980's? It was to be established in a building that had been used to store the Zyklon-B during the Shoah.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I'm unfamiliar with that, and unless you wish to familiarize me with the various sides of the issue, I am not going to comment.

I'm guessing you are already aware of this situation, and thus, you can comment on it w/o blindly doing so, as you ask me to do.

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

Strange that in your post to condemn biases you are using this poll to re-enforce your own biases.

You are also misreading the results, hispanics, according to the poll, are much more likely to oppose the mosque than whites. You should be flaming the hispanic jews from SI without a college degree... both of them.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

fair point--but it's obvious that SI is *far* more against this than any other borough, and I ponder, when talking about NYC, how SI compares to the other boroughs in population of hispanics.

So, sure, I'll condemn the hispanics who oppose this too.
It's not *just* whites.

FAQ

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

"Is it inappropriate for Muslims to live near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to work near ground zero?
Is it inappropriate for Muslims to pray in their own homes, if those homes are near ground zero?"

All questions are imposing reltionship between the religion and the deed of some people that followed it. From here on the basis of the common religion it usually is expanded further to all followers.

In theoretische sprache, these should be NOs, accoeding to the rethorics of liberal values, true democracy and human rights.

If you answer is YES to all three, you have to admit that your own words are inconsistent with your own deeds.

What's more interesting - in fact,
1. They will,
2. They will,
3. They will.

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

It's amusing that you're using a poll to justify your own opinion and one of New Yorkers at that.

I think we all know what you'd say if someone published a poll of the Bible belt to justify their own opinions on this matter.

I'm wondering where all this concern about respecting differing opinions hides when gun crimes make gun sales or conventions politically incorrect or when anyone but a liberal Democrat attempts to campaign in an area the liberals want to claim as their own.

[thies.livejournal.com]

I'm then left wondering how conservatives, who how you demonstrated have been on the receiving end of bias, come to the conclusion that hitting others the same way is a cool idea.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting the poll breakdown. I always appreciate good data in a debate.

It's worth noting, though, that while Staten Island was indeed the most emphatic in their opposition, Manhattan was the only borough without a clear majority opposed to the idea.

MODS

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

Also, can we get a rule about one post per topic per day? There's no reason this couldn't have been included as a reply to the earlier post on this topic.

Too many people try to "trump" earlier posts on topics with their own posts.

Re: MODS

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Keep big government out of our posts!

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

So Sharif El-Gamal is to bin-Laden as Angers Hoegstrom is to Adolf Hitler?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

What is, then, inappropriate about a group of Muslims coming together and praying together, near ground zero?</q? That's not inappropriate either. What's inappropriate (to minimize it) is building a mosque there. A mosque is a sign/symbol of ownership. It's declaring that area to be holy ground to Muslims, for all time.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

You are having no luck with those tags today.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The answer is that it is of course appropriate in a civilized society for them to do all of the above and those who oppose this espouse values more out of touch than those held by Genghis Khan.

[anadinboy.livejournal.com]

it wasnt lack of political correctness that got ny attacked.

[http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/]

The idea of telling people: "NO! You cannot congregate in public and do what you are obviously allowed to (and going to) do in your own homes!"

Is an excellent way to tell Muslims: Hey, America is the enemy! Go kill them!

While I have no objections to the mosque, I don't think domestic policy should be shaped by our fear of terrorism.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

To reference some previous posts here...

Cordoba House to Ground Zero as White comedian portraying Obama to Blackface.

[readherring.livejournal.com]

People really have to get over this notion that America was attacked by the Islamic religion. It wasn't - it was attacked by a crazy hate group led by Osama bin Laden. Our blaming Islam for the attacks would be like Bejing blaming Christianity if they were ever attacked by Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church.

There are some qualitative differences between bin laden and Phelps, I'll admit - one is just a douchebag with a tiny following, while the other is a douchebag with a large and powerful following. Another is that Phelps is technically the leader of his small church, while bin Laden is not considered to be a leader of Islam by any definition under the church.

I wish our political leaders and pundits had the guts to keep reminding the public that we are at war with terrorists, not with a church. But instead, most just silently accept the wave of misplaced hate and try to ride it to their own personal benefit - or at least they don't cross it out of fear of it hurting their own reputation.

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

Your comparison would be compelling if there were thousands of copies of Fred Phelps, some of whom actually ran entire countries, endorsing what Fred Phelps does.

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

"That said, building a large religious center essentially at the site where some of your co-believers committed what is considered by the local populace to be a heinous act and meets the definition of an act of War is not exactly the same as individuals living and praying as they go about their day to day lives." (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/640044.html?thread=47660588#t47660588)

"I substituted one group of inherently violent regresives[sic.] [ie: Muslims] with another group of inherently violent regressives[sic.] [ie: White Nationalists]." (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/640044.html?thread=47671852#t47671852)

"I don't oppose being allowed to build the mosque there, but you'd be dense if you didn't thing it was a bit asshole-ish. Like building a neo-nazi center near a death camp." (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/640044.html?thread=47694380#t47694380)

"Cordoba House to Ground Zero as White comedian portraying Obama to Blackface." (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/640044.html?thread=47719980#t47719980)

What is wrong with you people?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Apparently a lot. Certain issues really make me question if humans are actually ready for democracy.

But then I remember: Mayor Bloomberg is down with it, as are the people who *actually* seem to have a say in the matter.
So, at least in this situation, the numbskulls are not in a position of power.

[hannahsarah.livejournal.com]

The Ground Zero mosque will be appropriate on the day that a synagogue is built in Dubai, and a church is built in Mecca. Deal?

Until then, muslims can just stfu and go back home if they don't want to play fair.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

WTF is wrong with you?

Why are you DENYING AMERICAN MUSLIMS the right to build a community center

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

that building is grandfathered in

no really, this is what my friend who's against it told me