(no subject)

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

I spent a while digging through the old Jay Smooth archives because I remembered him addressing the problem of "colour blindness" in a really succinct and persuasive way, and I'm seeing this fallacious conception of nonracism as race-unawareness all over here lately.

I can't say it much better than Jay already has, but I think it benefits everyone when we approach the issue the way he does here. A lot of us seem a little bit impatient, like we can't wait for the world to be rid of racism so we can stop hearing about it. That impatience, as well-intentioned as it is, is part of the problem. We won't run out of racist shit to talk about until we get over being sick of talking about it.


Aside, this is why the term "race card" grates on me so harshly. Not that some racial-privilege arguments aren't just facile excuses (which some certainly are), but a dismissive term like this can't help but end up applying to real, substantive complaints of racism too.

Comments

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

And... ?

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

Yay, there's content now. Since I can't watch the video now, I was hoping you'd add in something I could actually respond to.

I'll post my actual thoughts below.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Awesome.

[stephantom.livejournal.com]

It's an important point and he explained it really well. Thanks for sharing the clip.

[uberarcanist.livejournal.com]

I think we can all agree with that

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

You fell short of giving your own opinion. Really, is is so difficult?

1 hour for amendments, then?

Mind you, a short one would do too.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I think you're being overly stuck on the "opinion" part. Not everything posted needs an explicit opinion. This one has an implicit opinion that's fairly obvious.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

We're "stuck" with the opinion part for a reason.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

If I had meant to include the rest of the mods, I would have. I meant you specifically. I think you are interpreting that rule a little too literally.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

In fact I've discussed this with most of the mods, and believe me, I'm stating the consensus position on this. It's been a core principle of TP.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

I agree, especially in cases of Youtube videos. Being in a position where I sometimes can't watch videos when reading effectively locks me out of discussions like this one at times. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Frankly, the main reason for insisting on including at least some personal analysis of the issue being presented is that we're aiming at a somewhat higher level than your usual newsreel copypasta. If more people could agree with that standard, so much the better.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

...we're aiming at a somewhat higher level than your usual newsreel copypasta.

And look how well that's worked out.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

At least we try.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Then someone's being disingenuous. Discussion (and promoting it) has been a core principle of TP, not stating a hard opinion in the OP.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Stating an opinion or at least presenting an issue to discuss is essential for starting a discussion. You have to provide your point of view first, then defend it, or elaborate on it, or just ask a question about an issue after providing some background, and then discussion ensues. For copy-pasted links, vids and articles, I recommend ontd_political.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

at least presenting an issue to discuss is essential for starting a discussion

This is what I'm saying. And I'm saying that the OP did this, even though he didn't give a hard opinion.

I'm seeing this fallacious conception of nonracism as race-unawareness all over here lately.

This line in the OP presents the topic for discussion irregardless of the video and gives an implicit opinion on it too.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Please read this.
http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/261191.html

I think we've exhausted the subject and we're going in circles.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I'll help you out:
And if you're wondering if a one-liner comment of the "Look at this, i agree/disagree with it / Look at this, it's pretty bad" sort counts as "analysis", no it doesnt.

Since the OP here has himself agreed with this, why couldn't you?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I don't see any agreement, I see compliance in the face of the threat of removal.

While the change to the OP is better, that doesn't mean it was bad before.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

OK, I see your point.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd think that the statement "I'm seeing this fallacious conception of nonracism as race-unawareness all over here lately" fits the bill.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Don't you like the new version of the post more? I do.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

It is transplendent.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

+1 for Annie Hall reference.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Alright, you tyrant. ;)

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

You're awesome. Thanks. :-)

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

He doesn't contradict what I've said, at least, about color-blindness. I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

It was last night's thread with Jeff which inspired me, but I think this is a point that could be stressed on a lot of recent posts to this community. It certainly isn't directed at you in particular.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply it was directed at me, I was just highlighting for other readers that if they agree with this and disagree with me that they should consider that they have been misunderstanding me.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

It is both amusing and frustrating that the commenters who understand privilege also understand why you posted this -- while the ones who don't are completely missing the point.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

I guess I more or less expected that. It's still worth banging this drum, and it seems like it will be for a good long while.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

I can't watch the video, so I'm mostly going to stick to your first post-video paragraph.

As I said in futurebird's post below, I think a lot of people's attitudes towards racism stem from its presentation. Give a serious, thought-provoking issue where it's reasonable to see racism and I think a lot of people will be willing to talk earnestly about it. Too often, though, people are presented with outrage over ill-perceived notions of things which clearly are not racist, and it will wear on people's patience.

The end result is that people will be less willing to listen, because even if good points are raised, they will no longer feel it's worth wading through the crap to get to them. That's not fair to the people who are raising the good points, especially when they're ignored because of an unwanted association with someone who is too willing to raise the flag over any perceived slight. On the other hand, I can't blame the people who are too tired of listening for the diamonds in the rough, either.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, people talking about racism too much is a good excuse to accept racism where it indeed exists.

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

Oh look, it's pastorlenny making an intelligent comment. Also, the sky is red and people have twelve fingers.

Wait, I think something's off here...

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

[reflaxion.livejournal.com]

Touché.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

YOU ROCK

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, you do.

[singlethink.livejournal.com]

Don't you think he contradicts himself?

He equates black culture with the black race.

So either every black person is a part of black culture, in which case some racism is merited, or black culture is separate from the black race in which case race doesn't provide anyone with any sort of identity.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

So either every black person is a part of black culture, in which case some racism is merited, or black culture is separate from the black race in which case race doesn't provide anyone with any sort of identity.

...OR, the extent to which these are interconnected is different for every black person, and you may have to go to the trouble of dealing with each one as his or her own, individual person.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

MY GOD!! You mean if we can't stereotype the experience and views of every black person, that "culture" might still exist ANYWAY????

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Binary logic doesn't apply when dealing with a "spectrum" of experience.

True -- you can have the "Different Strokes" effect where someone of Black skin can be completely removed from Black culture, but that seems to be an outlier and not the "norm".

Most people with Black Skin, in America, have experienced similar things -- not everything, but some "common elements" which has shaped their outlooks and thus is part (not all, part) of "culture".


Perhaps you should clarify what *your* definition of culture is?

[singlethink.livejournal.com]

The integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time.

I'll bet you can't find a set of characteristics that fit 80% of black people and don't fit 80% of any other race. If you can't, then it's not really "black culture," more of just another subculture. "Urban culture" is probably more accurate.