Why the ' Invisble Hand ' does not always work..

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It has been said that if Socialism ever came to the USA, there would be starvation, rioting in the streets, and the whole fabric of society would collapse. People would literally die as a result of policies.

Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?

Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.

And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.

Comments

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

All I know is, if I am going to get prostate cancer, I want it to be in the USA, not the UK. In fact, if anyone I love is touched by cancer I hope they are treated by the harsh realities of the US Health Care system... they have a better chance, on average, of surviving.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Got any stats to back that statement up, please?

to be honest, prostate cancer hits people who are already old.
i would rather be in a country that looks after children if i am gonna be born anywhere. that way , i might live to an age where I can actually get prostsate cancer and take my chances...

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Here you go: Cancer survival rates by country (http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596).

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

well, you take the USa against the european average, I notice.
but never mind. you also do better than Canada - but only for cancer.
Just lets hope that if you get born in the USa, that you live long enough to be at rsik - because the USA is way down the league when it comes to surviving the first few years as a child.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Just lets hope that if you get born in the USa, that you live long enough to be at rsik - because the USA is way down the league when it comes to surviving the first few years as a child.

Not really. The US would do fine if it measured the same way many Euro countries do. Instead, we say that a child under 30oz is born alive, for instance.

Not so fast...

[omnot.livejournal.com]

"...survival rates in Canada, Japan, Australia and Cuba were all comparable to or higher than U.S. survival rates on all types of cancer that the Lancet study examined, except for prostate cancer. Those countries all have some form of government-provided health care coverage. Prostate cancer often doesn’t require treatment, so the aggressive screening common in the U.S. turns up both early cases and cases that would never need intervention. This leads to an inflated survival rate in the U.S., where asymptomatic patients are more likely to be diagnosed."

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cancer-rates-and-unjustified-conclusions/

Check your facts. Australia does far, far better at providing health care to its citizens than the USA.

Re: Not so fast...

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Check your facts. Australia does far, far better at providing health care to its citizens than the USA.

I'm not buying it.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

For the record: Europe has dozens of countries, many of them (like mine, Bulgaria) being the crappy shitholes that they are. I think you need to provide other sort of data.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080716/cancer_statistics_080716/20080716/

The Money Quote:The U.S. has a five-year survival rate in all the cancers studied of 91.9 per cent, while Europe's is much lower at 57.1 per cent. However, survival rates within the U.S. can vary.

And from what I understand, the UK is behind even the EU.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

this is the 'apples for apples' trick.

one link wanted to compare the USA ( I country) to Europe ( a vast collection of countries, some good , some crappy when it comes to healthcare.

The fact is that some euro countries are more socialist than we are, and are doing a better job than britain in terms of healthcare.

the fact is that most developed countries have some form of Universal health Coverage - but the USA isn't one. in fact its the only one and is behind Australia, the UK, Germany and all the others in IMRs.

It does well in early detection of Prostate cancer though , but disabled war veterans and anyone being born in the Land of the Free is getting a raw deal,it seems.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Yeah, unfortunately the disparity continues even if you factor out the poorer parts of Europe. Even if you factor out the UK. France is a wash, some rates are better, some worse. Sweden is at parity in most cases. Other EU states? Not so much.

And by the way, what country could possibly have a more socialist health care system than the UK? While the UK isn't the most socialist country in Europe, but it does have the most socialized system of health care.

You keep focusing on lack of universal care, despite the fact that the actual outcomes for US citizens are often better, often pretty shockingly better.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

You only love white people with money I'm guessing?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

If they have good insurance ...

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Sure. Since large portions of the US public have excellent health insurance, this does tend to skew the results in a positive way.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

So, how many ppl would you say go bankrupt in the states , as a result of medical expenses?

of course, i have got a quote already - I just want to hear what you have to say about this figure.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

How many people needlessly die from neglect or incompetence while in NHS care?

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Insurance should be a saftey net for those who cannot save, in reality it's a money making scam! How many people have been denied payouts from insurance schemes they've paid into all their lives, when they are silly enough to get sick?

[omnot.livejournal.com]

By the way, the reason that prostate cancer survival rates look so good in the USA is because of the screening program.

They are finding more prostate cancers that would never have been discovered otherwise, as they show no symptoms, grow veeeery slowly therefore require no treatment unless the person bearing it lives so long that it becomes a problem.

Citation in one of my other links, I think. Not that evidence will make any difference to you.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I don't see how this effects my point in the slightest. All you are saying is that the US has more effective and pervasive screening for cancers. Hardly a stinging indictment of the system.

[omnot.livejournal.com]

No, not a condemnation, but the fact that the disparity in rates can be explained by a difference that contributes little to recovery rates of people who are actually ailing means that the the data does not support the assertion that the USA is better at curing cancer than are places with socialised health care systems.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Is early detection and treatment an important part of treating cancer, or not?

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I have two parents surviving Cancer in Sweden. My dad's prostate cancer was discovered and treated very speedily, he could choose 3 different methods and is cancer free and under regular controls, 3 years later. My mom got 1/3 of her lung removed through surgery due to cancer, 10 years cancer free.

If me or my husband get the big c, we will be moving to Sweden.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Well, data is commonly considered the plural of anecdote.

The truth is, Sweden does a very good job with cancer survivability. Just as good as the US, in fact. 5 year survival rates in the US are 62%, Sweden is 62%. It is one of the few countries in Europe to do so. So, good for Sweden. But you won't get better care in Sweden. Just equal.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

The care in the US is not bad, the prices are horrid and the availability sub par.

We'll afford it in Sweden.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

{5 year survival rates in the US are 62%, Sweden is 62%. It is one of the few countries in Europe to do so. So, good for Sweden. But you won't get better care in Sweden. Just equal.}

yet someone up thread was claiming that the US survival rates were 100%

I am told that over 62.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot - but I am not so sure :)
Can I ask where you got the 62% for US and Sweden from , plz ? It may be useful.

And yeah , it is also worth noting that paying out bigtime and having UHC lead to exactly the same outcome on cancer 5 yr survival rates.