Energy Efficiency

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

I just heard an interview with Amory Lovins, and it really surprised me. This guy has what sounds like a viable workable model for changing our energy policy while actually helping the economy.

Here's an excerpt from a separate interview:

The cornucopia of efficiency is real, but it's the manual model: we actually have to go turn the crank. It's not easy, but it's easier than not doing it. And if we do get serious about using energy in a way that saves money, some big problems like oil dependence, climate change, and the spread of nuclear weapons will go away, not at a cost but at a profit, because efficiency is cheaper than fuel. That's a prize worth working hard to capture.
Here's the whole thing

With all these tools and information available, how does one justify arguments against energy reform? It doesn't cost jobs, it creates them. It requires a "big" initial investment but has a high rate of return. In fact, he argues that it's the "safest investment in today's economy." And in fact, the two richest men in China are investors in clean and renewable energy. Europe has far outstripped the US in renewable energy and fuel efficiency, and China is poised to be the biggest manufacturer of wind energy in the world.

In addition, there's this.

What's the holdup, Republicans?

Comments

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

There's little chance of any big change happening until the energy efficiency lobby starts throwing more money at our "representatives" than the oil/gas lobby.

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

It does help that the DOE is headed by a nobel prize winning physicist though.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

Even less chance of "big change" happening when many of our people in leadership positions don't believe in concepts like global warming and still think electric cars wouldn't make a big difference, because electronic grid production is reliant on coal. And, then, there is even less legitimacy in the US corporate ranks where GM has long claimed it "lost 1 billion dollars" the last time it tried to build a production electric car -- the EV-1.

There's a massive load of BS that needs to be cleansed from the hearts and minds of those in positions of authority and reliability before change can be implemented. And, much of that change must be made by american consumers who have long bought things like SUVs and supported the wrong precedent within energy market, enough so, that car companies could afford to make bogus claims such as "americans don't want small, fuel efficient, vehicles, therefore we don't build them", and be taken seriously.

There are not only political barriers, but economic and people centric ones as well. And, little impetus nor reason to expect change will come soon. Especially with the way people are prone towards pointing fingers at others and blaming everyone but themselves as if it were the height of style and intellectual achievement in this world.

Change starts at home, buddy. And, it must be part of a collective as opposed to an individual effort.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Renewable energy sources are effeminate. Also, the Republican party runs a platform of maintaining the status quo.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

LOL yeah! We're american! We're too good for effeminate alternative energy! (Is that notion a result of brainwashing and advertising, or is it just ego blab made apparent by the expelling of hot air out through the esophagus, heh...)

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Whachu talking about Willis? I'm not even American.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

Damn. I love me.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

This may not be very funny, but health care is effeminate, too. Real men don't need puny things like doctors, right?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Your sarcasmo-meter needs some fixing. If it ever existed.

my to-do list

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

[✔] fix ssarcasmo meter

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

"Real men" are all about... amputation? And... anal probes? Not that effeminate "health care" stuff foreigners love...?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I AM a foreigner, wacko.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

LOL Smart man.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Fancy flashing fonts are fancy.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

<blink>flashing text goes here</blink>

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

flashing text goes here

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Cool, thanks.

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

Amory Lovins is absolutely brilliant. He has an excellent document which was put together for United States Department of Defense called Winning The Oil Endgame. His program is based on science and capitalism, which is far different than most green programs. It has positive comments by George P. Schulz and Robert McFarlane. Unlike most programs it is on target.

http://www.oilendgame.com/

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

i especially liked his "feebate" idea. i haven't read the book though, have you?

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

I recently started it and it is one of the better books that I have come across lately.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Sounds dirty.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

I had never heard of Amory Lovins before today. I wonder why no one mentions Obama in regard to this type of thing considering his own policies were more or less reflective of this type of thing and have been since day 1.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Thanks, that's given me something good to read tonight on the way home.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is that we keep waiting for the "best alternative" to be created or invented, when, in reality, it's better to make an attempt and make mistakes in an effort to produce progress.

A big hindrance in this, though, is that not too many companies are willing or able to produce the capital needed for such a project, and even those that have the ability and desire to attempt such a project are hesitant to latch onto an idea for fear of it failing and losing a large amount of that capital.

i think that's why

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

a lot of his ideas have taken soooo long to take root. the hyper car, for instance, is going into production soon. light-weight transport trucks are already in production. one company is now producing carbon-fiber composites for toyota and honda. and so on.

once the market catches on, it'll boom.

i'm glad you agree

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

though i can't help but point out that republicans aren't really on board in congress, and those that are got on the boat pretty late.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

I feel a definite urge to point out that it could be said america has the worst educational system, the worst health care, the highest number of its own population in prison and therefore we're likely to have the worst alternative energy programs -- if symmetry is anything to go by.

Therefore, its pointless to complain about health care, or alternative energy. There is a definite reason why we have failed in those areas as well as others. And, we will continue to fail until such problems are rectified, because they are inter-related and history repeats itself.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

Oh, and, that was a cool interview. Thanks for posting that!

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Interesting stuff.

One point they don't answer though, on the solar panel map; although the carbon footprint is nil for energy production from all those Solar Panels, how much in the way of emission is there from the manufacturer of all those square kilometres of panel?

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

A good question. I once heard someone claim that, because the raw materials for batteries in a Prius are made in one place, shipped to another for processing into battery materials, then another to be assembled, then another to be installed in the Prius itself, you'd need to own and operate it for something like fifteen years to even start seeing emissions savings, considering the emissions output by shipping it all over everywhere. Not certain if that's anywhere near true, but you raise a similar point WRT the supply chain's emissions as opposed to the end product "solution."

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

perhaps that'd be true if they made, processed, shipped, etc... one battery at a time. but no, i don't think so.

also, there is new technology for making solar panels as of last year. they are incredibly cheap and energy efficient to make now.

it is in fact, the cheapest source of power available... not counting infrastructure and.. sunshine.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Yeah that's probably true about economy of scale.

I asked mainly because last time I heard, the emissions from the manufacture of solar cells was high enough that they only broke even on emission savings after about 10-15 years, by which time they normally need replacement.

Do you have any info in this new technology? Name, etc?

[bebopmonkey.livejournal.com]

here's the latest article-
http://news.cnet.com/New-solar-technology-hits-snags/2100-11392_3-6185572.html

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

solar power isn't a new concept, or very complicated. The technology is.

Your old conventional gas waterheater/furnace/boiler had a thermocouple/thermopile which is two metals bonded together. Given the heat of a small pilot flame a thermocouple will produce 3-7.5mA and thermopiles even more.

In solar power, instead of gas flame, we're using the heat of the sun (car in the sun) to power a series of bi-metal strips to produce the current. Unfortunately the heat inside of car on a very hot day is not nearly as reliable as the same kinda heat from a flame, nor as efficient, but the concept is the same.

Costs are relative. The technology has been worked out but can be tweaked. Manufacturing costs will fall as it is spread across the broadening demand. The specific engineering costs will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. The raw material costs rise and fall. Copper was stupid expensive last summer and coming back after the October crash.

I been fooling around with solar to preheat water before it enters my conventional water heater. I am having issues because I need to have solenoids to automatically bypass and drain the panel as the outside temp approaches freezing. This proves problematic as the loop in the panel needs to be sloped and vented. And it all needs to be fail-safe with warnings. But one day I'll figure it out.

My material costs have been minimal as I take used plumbing materials (I'm a service plumber) and put it to work. But to build from new I could see at least $2500 in material costs plus labour and I don't see much in the way of prefab in factory to keep labour costs down. If I had to quote an install I would probably say at least $5000. Zone valves and parts would likely fail or leak before you recovered the cost in gas savings so I doubt it would be worth it. But the same is true of any high efficiency furnace/waterheater/boiler today.