Not sure if I should be happy to call this trend right or scared I was actually right for a change:

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Obligatory "And you kept saying the military was neutered and I was wrong to expect this to happen to Erdogan" line so it's out of the way and never brought up again.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/15/world/live-blog-turkey/index.html

This is an open thread for a major development that could end very badly, absolutely catastrophically, or basically confirming Turkey is for all its relative power as compared to such basketcases as Syria, the Palestinian territories, or even Egypt is a Middle Eastern banana republic. At the very least a military takeover to depose Erdogan confirms the disintegration of civilian rule. In most circumstances this is not precisely something to be ah, encouraged. Then again Erdogan essentially was trying to be a poor man's Ottoman sultan without the fancy uniforms or (at least theoretical anyway) charisma so it's hardly a loss.

But now the times they are a'changing and there's no guarantee it's for the better. Especially in the context of the ongoing crisis with Daesh and of course the Kurds.

Comments

armchair rogue general here...

[oportet.livejournal.com]

While I'm probably missing a good bit of information, and I have zero experience overthrowing governments - it just seems like common sense that you would take power directly from the leader - not try to step in while he's out of town...

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Why, it worked just fine in Ukraine.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

You seem surprised.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I'm seldom happy to be proven right on things I'd rather be proven wrong about. The moreso since the attempt did fail.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

What were you right about, agian?

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Yeah I'm confused on what he was right about. Is this some in-joke I'm missing?

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

None of us are ever right, for any given value of right.

Even me. :)

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

Still wondering how come Turkey isn't being accepted in the EU, eh?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Pfeh! Even Turkish military coups aren't what they used to be. There's almost no rogue military left to enforce Ataturk's view of how a good self-respecting Middle Eastern banana republic is supposed to function.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

^ Win. ^

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

Pretty true.

Instead in some of the Middle East we have a bunch of mediæval religious despots. People who think that C19th tinpot banana republic dictators are too liberal and modern, and who throw gay folk from the top of buildings for transgressions against proper behaviour. Or semi-fascist religious zealots in charge of nuclear weapons being slightly more than ordinarily nasty to their country's minority groups in occupied territories, which in turn fuels even more ridiculous fanaticism on behalf of a faction of a different Abrahamic religion.

You lose some, you lose some more. I think aliens from space might want to nuke all of us to stop the contagion spreading.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Now that Erdogan has handled this, he'll be cracking down on everybody even harder. How convenient.

RE: armchair rogue general here...

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately true. It would have been better had he been toppled. Now he won't even pretend to respect civil authority without a religious element.

RE: armchair rogue general here...

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

It is both unfortunate and true that we would all be better with a different administration in Turkey.

However supporting or condoning coups d'etat against democratically elected governments is just a trifle too much like Reagan's policies in South America for my unquestioning support. Even when the democracy in question is made up of religious nutters, as in some parts of the Middle East, or 52% cretins, here in the UK.

RE: armchair rogue general here...

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Careful what you wish for. We've seen Americans wanting various bad dictators to be toppled, only to see something worse coming after.

RE: armchair rogue general here...

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

Now it appears that some 2500 judges have been implicated.

That coup d'etat does seem to be remarkably large for an unsuccessful one. I would have thought with some 6,000 people now arrested there would be security leaks. No wonder the coup failed, if coup it was.

How do 2500 judges manage to talk to so many colonels? That's one big conference centre meeting, or thousands of clandestine meetings on a one-to-one basis.

If we work through the logistics of this coup, we will find huge holes in the official version of events. The arrangements and organisation seem rather at odds with the actuality of the post-coup arrests and detainments.

Oh well.

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

He isn't even hiding his intentions any more:

"This insurgency is a blessing from Allah, because it will allow us to purge the military". (http://www.businessinsider.com/erdogan-statement-after-coup-attempt-2016-7)

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

There's a chap who can run with the ball.

I really would like there to be space aliens right now. Shame on me.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

And it gets worse:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/19/turkey-sacks-15000-education-workers-in-purge (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/19/turkey-sacks-15000-education-workers-in-purge)

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

As I watch the newsfeed from around Turkey and some parts of the world, I can't help feeling amazed. Today everyone suddenly supports Erdogan, the champion of democracy in Turkey. Well played, Erdogan. Really well played.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

I know.

It's pretty horrible when the horrible folk learn how to use politics to their own advantage, but that's democracy for you. Shame every other political system is potentially much worse.

But there you go.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Erogan regularly removes anybody who doesn't agree with him out of his way. And those he can't remove he tries to silence. How's that democracy?

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

It is curious that everyone is so worked up about the threat from the Islamic State, while a genuine Islamic state is being shaped up right in front of our eyes by the wannabe-sultan of the Neo-Ottoman Empire.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

Not entirely true. Folk are shitting bricks over both; it's just that one seemed less noxious until about a year ago, though we all know the signs were there.

It's beginning to seem as if we are going to have to, ahem, support Egypt under the generals...and similar.

I don't like it much, but...there seems to be a consensus building about it, and I like the alternatives worse. The thing is, if we go down the route of supporting the generals over there, do we support them when they do over here, wherever here may be? The other thing is, I've never really considered myself the sort of person who could support, let's say, Pinochet. Coming from a family which has served in the forces since the 1700's I think the best place for a general is in the army or on the retired list, not in government.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

I have actually seen people on this very forum equating Turkey's record on human rights and democracy to that of Europe, and using that as argument to claim hypocrisy on part of the latter regarding Turkey's aspirations for EU membership. Which did sound disingenuous back then, but in light of these latest developments, is outright ridiculous.

I am not sure people were shitting as many bricks on the Turkish issue as they were on the Islamic State issue. Not remotely as many bricks, not remotely the same size of bricks, and definitely not that shape of bricks.

There is no supporting the generals. First, because everybody has already said they do not support the generals. And secondly, because there are no generals left to receive that support. Dear Leader already saw to that.

As for the generals, if Turkish history is any guide, they do not tend to rule for too long there after having removed a government or two.