[identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
It is a very good thing my friends, that I am not running for office.
The following statement would kill any hopes I ever had of that:

I am not sure that democracy is the best system of government. We might be better under the rule of experts.

Allow me to explain myself. I have been alive for less than three decades, but in my time I have learned many things. I learned to walk and talk and run and bike and think and play chess and countless other activities were learned too. One of them has been learning to talk and think about politics. It may be sad to say, but for years I have been active in politics and certainly not just here on this forum. In the real world I have been engaged in the practice of fighting for change in the government.

Many of you have probably done the same, in your own ways. We are all here because we have an interest in political theory, in political discussions. We self-select in that sense. (minus the trolls)

One of the lessons anyone versed in real world politics has learned is that lots and lots of people don't give a fuck about politics. We've all met em. We know these people exist.

Now, I am not here to condemn the apolitical--although others may say I am. I am here to suggest that learned people and unlearned people are unequal. Nobody is born learned--but that does not mean we remain that way. We all learn *certain specific* things.

While it may be old hat to say so, it may be in the best interests of the whole world if the people who are most learned in a field are in control of that field. It would be chaos if the legal system was not based on learned judges--we see that lay-folk and field-specific-folk are unequal in their knowledge and therefor abilities in regards to that field. (and of course, learned judges do not always agree with one another but they disagree in learned ways)

Anyone may become an expert, or a learn a specific thing, but until they do, perhaps they ought not direct the discussion. Bill O'Reilly and his "tides come in, tides go out, you can't explain that" understanding undermine what we *do* know about science. Bill could have chosen a dozen things science cannot explain, but, as a lay-person, he unknowingly and foolishly chose a bad example. Bill shouldn't do physics and the apolitical shouldn't control politics.

It is clearly the case that lots and lots of people don't know the first thing about politics in the US. I am a US citizen, so it's where I'm centered. The level of understanding people have is rather small. And I believe I know why: they're busy people and they assume it will be taken care of. "eh, i might not vote, what difference would it make anyway? someone's gonna win, my vote won't change that" and it's hard to argue with that. I certainly haven't gained much ground in those conversations. Have you? How?

Since lots of people don't know the first thing about politics, it seems like we shouldn't have all these people who know so little, in charge of so much. I am hereby arguing for a rigorous examination for anyone to be allowed to vote.

And yes, the test will be rigorous (and free! no poll-tax here). It is meant to be a high-mark to be reached; it is not granted--it is earned. You must demonstrate an understanding of the govt you wish to elect. You must also show some understanding of global issues. Perhaps you should not be electing the next president if don't know if we are at war (de facto or de jure) in any countries around the world. Perhaps you shouldn't be electing a county legislator if you think he can outlaw abortion.

I hear the objections coming! From the left: "You will disenfranchise poor people! This will be used to suppress the minority vote! You know how education is distributed unequally and unfairly and racially in this country, don't let the right-wing win like that! It will become a playground for rich white boys, don't you see?"

From the right: "CONSTITUTION!!!!!"

And both sides have their point. I am obviously posing a hypothetical that we, the learned, can be certain will never come to pass in our lifetime. We, the learned, can understand how such a thing is impossible--but we can also speculate. Ignoring the question of how such a system would come into being, what do you think of this idea?

I suppose it's an old and crude assault upon democracy; the mob is rabble and the rabble is mindless. Mindful people do better than mindless people; let the mindful rule. So Saith Socrates.

TL;DR:

Bottom line: the world should be run by political junkies. Discuss.

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Date: 23/8/13 05:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
the world should be run by political junkies.

People like that could easily fall into "the ends justify the means;" they live in their own little bubble and have virtually no interaction with anything that doesn't justify their world view. I doubt you'd like to live in a technocratic world where machines make life and death decisions, would you? That is the end of the slippery slope of denying those you don't feel are equipped to make electoral decisions the ability to do so.

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From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com - Date: 23/8/13 13:58 (UTC) - Expand
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Date: 23/8/13 16:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
^ This times a thousand ^

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Date: 23/8/13 05:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
How about working towards making people more knowledgeable instead? While I know it's common knowledge that we've been going to hell in a hand basket ever since hand baskets were invented, we're in reality better educated than in the past. I actually don't think it would take too much to improve our political literacy. Okay, the effort to improve our political literacy would be to get politicians, who might not be the biggest beneficiaries of an increased political literacy to work towards implementing it.

Of course, we'll still have the problem that half the people will be less politically involved than average, but that's for those who come afterwards to worry about.

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Date: 23/8/13 05:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
How about working towards making people more knowledgeable instead?

Where do I sign up for this?

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Date: 23/8/13 05:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
You say laymen, not experts, should be running politics. And I get reminded that I've always been disturbed by the fact that in a representative democracy where politicians who don't give a fuck about the needs of their constituents and are sitting in parliament solely to serve as the political tools of their respective parties that they are, are regularly required to vote on matters they don't know jack shit about. I mean, here's this former surgeon now turned MP, who's supposed to be voting on a bill about, say, patent law. What the hell does he know about patent law? Of course he'll vote exactly the way he's instructed by the party headquarters without putting a single thought into it. Is that "representation"? Is this scheme supposed to craft the best and most adequate policies on specific issues of importance? I dunno, man, I dunno. But it kind of makes no sense whatsoever.
Edited Date: 23/8/13 05:52 (UTC)

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Date: 23/8/13 05:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Ah, technocracy. Preach it (http://abomvubuso.livejournal.com/378455.html), bru!

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Date: 23/8/13 06:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
You're assuming that there is some way of measuring what makes someone qualified to make decisions on behalf of the rest of us. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, freakin' geniuses.

How do you test for empathy, easily as important in governing a free people as political nous.

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Date: 23/8/13 06:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mikeyxw.livejournal.com
Standardized testing, of course.

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Date: 23/8/13 08:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
I would like to disagree with you, but find it difficult given the average person in our western democracies.

Nevertheless, Jeff is an informed person, and he and I disagree often, and each of us considers ourselves conservative. So, as you say, there's no win even there.

In human terms we must make the best of a bad job, and include the uninvolved: mitigated by the fact that the folk who are generally elected to represent us will be on the way to becoming expert by dint of their situation; and the electorate itself becomes relatively unimportant in this process. (There are exceptions, of course: the Palins and Bachmans of ths world do a lot of damage, as do single issue pressure groups.)

You do seem to be arguing towards some sort of platonic philosopher-king, or at least a senate/parliament composed of experts, somewhat like the UK's House of Lords. Which I find surprising given your previous positions.

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Date: 23/8/13 10:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
That is why a republic is superior to a democracy. But that doesn't mean that an oligarchy of experts is better. The best government is the one that governs the least.

The basic logic flaw with your suggestion of a rigorous test is that someone has to create it. It's the same problem we have now with people voting themselves money.

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Date: 23/8/13 11:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Rrriiight....

::backs slowly away::

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Date: 23/8/13 11:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
Knowledge and moral vision are two different things.

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Date: 23/8/13 12:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
Okay, so we appoint political experts instead. I'm game - experts in what, though?

Political science? That doesn't really provide you much in the way of a career as a politician.

Government? That's great if you think running government is a game, but doesn't say much about one's ability to govern or the issues.

Expert on the issues? Now we're getting somewhere, but (as a theoretical) if I'm an expert in economic policy and you social policy, who's lined up first? Why should we be ahead of someone who's an expert in, say, transportation?

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Date: 23/8/13 14:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com
I've learned fairly recently that many people don't give a fuck about politics... until a black man is in the white house, then suddenly...

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Date: 23/8/13 14:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
There is always the possibility that the great unwashed masses who avoid politics know more than we 'learned' political junkies.

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Date: 23/8/13 22:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
To give it a better chance - instead of using your test to decide who gets to vote, use the same test to determine who gets more than one vote. Everyone still gets a say, but those who score over 80 get two votes, over 90 get three, perfect score gets 5 votes...

I suggest this also because smart people tend to overthink. A simple-minded person is usually the one that figures out an appliance isn't working because it isn't plugged in, while geniuses analyze one-hundred-and-thirty-eight different possibilities for the source of the undesired malfunction.

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Date: 23/8/13 22:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
The expertise or the lack thererof is not the primary hurdle keeping government from being able to tackle many of the systemically complex tasks it has taken upon itself to handle. The nature of the complexity prevents expert and layman equally from being able to do so. And that's even assuming a perfectly honest and forthright group of expert rulers, which is far from certain.

There are other structural adjustments to the current government's status quo I would argue better tasked for addressing such issues, but they do not necessarily have to do with the subject of the post.
Edited Date: 23/8/13 22:38 (UTC)

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Date: 24/8/13 01:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
Were you not, just last year, arguing EVERYONE should be forced to vote, or pay a fine??

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Date: 24/8/13 02:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brother-dour.livejournal.com
This may be neither here nor there, but it's probably pretty absurd that the people we elect to Congress must make decisions about legislation that they can't possibly fully understand, because no one can know everything about everything.

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Date: 24/8/13 04:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
Appoint scientists, mathematicians, biologists, and engineers.

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Date: 26/8/13 08:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
Last post before bed.

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