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talkpolitics
I know there are several educators in the community (and thank you for your service in education!), so I thought this would be a great place for some hashing out ideas and opinions about this quiz for 8th graders in 1912 Bullitt County, Kentucky. There's been a lot of buzz generated about it. [ You can see a larger and complete copy of the quiz here. ] And the answers are here.
When I took the test, I was scratching my head on some of the questions. and I felt pretty insecure. The math stuff wasn't too hard (the cord of wood question threw me because, I've never had to buy or move or sell cords of wood, so a cheat sheet for the linear dimensions was definitely in order). But Smithsonian magazine has a great piece on this quiz: ( No, You’re Probably Not Smarter Than a 1912-Era 8th Grader ),raising some interesting points.
Eighth graders needed to know about patent rights, the relative size of the liver and mountain range geography. They had to be able to put together an argument for studying physiology. Though some of it is useful, much of the test amounts of little more than an assessment of random factoids.So, if you’re anything like us, no, you’re probably not much smarter than an 1912 Bullitt County eighth grader. But that’s okay.
Tests like this are still done today, of course, often in the form of “scientific literacy” tests. The tests are meant to give an idea of how well people understand the world around them. But, in reality, what the these tests share in common with the Bullitt County test is that they quiz facts in place of knowledge or understanding. Designing a standardized test to quiz true understanding is of course very difficult, which is one of the reasons why these sorts of tests persist. Writing for The Conversation, Will Grant and Merryn McKinnon argue that using these types of tests to say that “people are getting dumber” or “people are getting smarter” is kind of dumb itself. “Surveys of this type are, to put it bluntly, blatant concern trolling,” they say.
I'm sort of torn though. Wouldn't being able to take old ideas or facts and get new advances require at some level, a working knowledge of the "old ideas" or the things themselves? The liberal-arts-education in me sees a value in knowledge for the sake of knowledge, an informed citizen is a good citizen after all, right? In that spirit, one of my college classes had as required reading: Cultural Literacy: What every American Need to Know. The author of that book, E.D. Hirsch Jr. insists that children in the U.S. are being deprived of the basic knowledge that would enable them to function in contemporary society. James Burke, the British philosopher of science, wrestled with that question in the BBC serie(s) Connections. An Alternative View of Change You'll have to read the summary at Wikipedia about Burke's work, but the take-away question (and this has a significant impact on how we should view our educational system):
..if the entire modern world is built from these interconnected innovations, all increasingly maintained and improved by specialists who required years of training to gain their expertise, what chance does the average citizen without this extensive training have in making an informed decision on practical technological issues, such as the building of nuclear power plants or the funding of controversial projects such as stem cell research? Furthermore, if the modern world is increasingly interconnected, what happens when one of those nodes collapses? Does the entire system follow suit?
Educator, and Youtube video creator CGPGrey recently made a post on what the future of education will like, utilizing what he calls a 'digital Aristotle.' While he makes a compelling case for the use of Internet technology,along with sophisticated programs that will be able to tailor unique educational packages for each student– I'm not sure I agree completely, since isn't the social element and interaction with teachers and other students a part of the education process? Here is CGPGrey's highly informative video:
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 19:08 (UTC)Some of the questions give a bit of leeway, like "describe the heart" ... well... it's a muscle, it pumps blood, is part of respiratory system, if you eat a lot of doughnuts and don't work off enough of those doughnuts you could clog up your arteries and die, if you repeat "Kalima!" enough times you can pull one of these out of someone's chest. Anything else?
As for spelling, I admit, spelling check spoled me.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 19:34 (UTC)in 1910, NATIONALLY, 59.2% of the population aged 5-19 was enrolled in school. But also in 1910, the median number of years completed nationally was 8.1 years, so that first number is heavily skewed towards elementary education. By 1969, the median number of years was 12.1 years. In 1910, the total illiteracy rate among people 14 and older was 7.7% (with over 30% among blacks and other minorities). By 1969, 1%.
So I don't have Kentucky specific stats, but it ought to be noted that 8th grade was the median NATIONAL exit point from formal schooling and such an exam would be, for all intents and purposes, an exit exam. Kids who did very well on it were likely among the very few who went on to mostly private secondary schooling.
(no subject)
Date: 18/8/13 01:14 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 19:40 (UTC)As of the census[11] of 2000, .... The racial makeup of the county was 98.07% White, 0.38% Black or African American
Education was, and is still today institutional racism. Show me one from the African American schools, and then let us talk about the 'quality of education'.
See, racists in power will do ANYTHING, even dumb down other white's children (they send their kids to 'charter' and 'religious' schools) to keep African Americans subjugated. They are not going to let something like integration get in the way of their hate.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 20:37 (UTC)That's like New Hampshire today.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 19:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 20:59 (UTC)Can we identify weaknesses in a system and aim to improve it?
When the question of climate change is dealt with as it is, I'm not sure that we don't have an education crisis.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:04 (UTC)I don't know, I'm just thinking of the context of "making decisions about nuclear power plants". I mean, what if we stopped making nuclear power plants? Is this a failure of something? Or is it just a thing? Like, ok, no nuclear power plants. I guess that doesn't really concern me I guess.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:09 (UTC)really?
I'm not talking about power-plants I'm talking about society.
It seems to me that society can be improperly functioning; sorta like driving on a flat tire? Something is obviously wrong, but it can still move forward right?
If we educate people to be so ignorant as to not know basic facts, we may still wind up with a society that moves forward--in time at least. I do not consider the fact that society can devolve a good thing. We function enough to keep moving, but are we moving in the right direction?
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:12 (UTC)What direction is that again? I'm not interested in serving some uber-social "direction". I want to have babies and drink beer and pet puppies. Does this fit in with our grand social aims of, whatever-the-hell-the-technocracy-demands?
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:22 (UTC)Society can make it easier or harder for you to do the things you want to.
I think it's an improvement when we make it easier.
Bad education can lead to making it harder.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:24 (UTC)Sure, but really, in the end, you don't need a college degree to make a baby. I hear it told that we've been having babies for millions of years. And I can get money for beer by lifting heavy rocks all day. And I can raise a baby too on that alone.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:31 (UTC)I've not said that college degrees are necessary. But understanding our govt is important for someone who wants to interact with that govt.
You could be, by law, deprived of the right to beer (or puppies! in Iran, only service dogs are allowed, no dogs as pets) and thus you wouldn't get what you want.
You do remember that time when people were deprived of beer, legally, right? Sure, people still got their booze. Kinda like todays drug war; you can go get whatever you like. But society, as a whole, pays a price.
Sure we coulda kept funding the mob with prohibition, but drugs are, on balance safer, when legal.
So if you want to drink beer (and presumably *cold* beer from a fridge, right? well someone gotta build that fridge) you might want to understand the basics of govt, and frankly, lifting heavy rocks all day is frankly unappealing to a lot of people--and is impossible for some with physical issues.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 03:26 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:32 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 22:13 (UTC)What about ciggies?!
(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 05:44 (UTC)So, is a non-functioning society possible? You might say Somalia is not functioning, but there's an argument to be made that it is. I mean you have to move the goal posts but in a fucked-up sort of way Somalia is functioning just fine.
(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 09:06 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 11:43 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 21:13 (UTC)Last I saw on polls, only 1/3 of Americans currently know the three branches of govt.
That *is* important for any good citizen to know and have some familiarity with.
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 22:14 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 22:34 (UTC)is he related to this somehow?
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 22:36 (UTC)You mentioned : Last I saw on polls, only 1/3 of Americans currently know the three branches of govt
He elaborates on that very point up (along with others).
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 22:51 (UTC)http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/27/local/la-me-civics-20111227
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 23:00 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 23:05 (UTC)Wait, I have no clue what you are talking about. Why is everyone making less sense than usual lately?
(no subject)
Date: 13/8/13 23:53 (UTC)Memorizing a bunch of facts no one will ever need should not be the aim of childhood education. I long for a society where people keep learning after their formal education finishes because their personal interactions reward continued learning.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 01:38 (UTC)Knowing Geography can be helpful to understanding world events.
Spelling, well, they didn't have spell-check back then.
The other subjects don't seem useless either, and part of learning subjects is memorizing facts.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 00:41 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 04:11 (UTC)This isn't, or at least it shouldn't be, and either/or decision, computers didn't replace office workers or engineers, they just did the routine stuff and let them focus more time on the tasks where people are much better than machines, increasing overall productivity. The Rocketship charter schools are getting some pretty impressive results (http://www.edreform.com/2012/10/futuristic-rocketship-schools-redefine-teaching/) using the same approach. By using technology to teach the basic work and allowing teachers to provide more personalized attention. This lets computers do what they're good at and teachers do what only they can do. I'm not sure if they'll get the same results if they scale out, but currently taking low income students and scoring as well on standardized tests as the students from the wealthiest districts in California. This is a pretty impressive beginning.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 07:11 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 09:00 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 17/8/13 22:35 (UTC)The school I'm working at now have gone half hearted, not training teachers, not giving them any time to develop ideas and not making the iPad compulsory, so only half the kids have them. If half the kids have a paper book, they should all have a paper book, otherwise the iPad is just for IM and gaming. When the whole class is on them you use them for much more than just books.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 05:57 (UTC)So I guess what I'm getting at here, apart from bragging about the Stephen Hawking thing (I met him after the talk too!), is that I think that we absolutely have to educate fundamentally differently now than we did in 1910. The key to intellectual and societal survival in the modern era is not learning facts, but learning how to learn, how to research, how to critically assess the validity of information sources, etc.
I mean, if somebody asks me what state capitols border the Ohio river, I can look that up on my phone in 5 seconds flat - but part of that is that I have learned, post-school, where to quickly and easily look up such information. But if someone asks me, say, what environmental issues attend the building of a new nuclear power plant down the street, the best thing an education can give me is the ability to find information and distinguish, in terms of what I should consider, between an EPA report and a screed about our precious bodily fluids on StopNukes.mercola.com or something.
We can no longer bring our kids up to be Jacks and Jills of all trades. So the best thing we can do with their school time is to teach them how to get the information they need and how to critically assess and process the endless and boundless flood of information before them.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 07:10 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 09:11 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 07:10 (UTC)I've had this discussion about this test before, what was relevant knowledge in 1912 isn't the same as today. That test is also all rote knowledge, today we teach higher order thinking and creativity, far more relevant skills than being able to list a series of facts.
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 09:04 (UTC)Now, if a test from another district, state, or country looks a lot more advanced than what my kids are learning, then I'd be a bit worried.
(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 05:05 (UTC)No Child Left Behind is meaning the whole country is getting left behind.
(no subject)
Date: 15/8/13 05:49 (UTC)The graph you're showing only counts the top 10% of students on Math for one year, I'm not exactly sure that is showing the whole country was left behind. If you look across all students, the US has always done a little worse than the OECD average on math, about average in reading, and a little better than average on science. Overall, we are in the "Not statistically significantly different from the OECD average" category for 2009.
Now, something that's not really not talked about is that the PISA scores for White and Asian kids in the US are pretty good, in the same ballpark as Canada or Singapore. We are however horrible at educating Hispanic and black kids, something that Rocketship seems to be able to address. See page 14. (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf)
(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 15:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 16:09 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/8/13 16:34 (UTC)