I plead the Fif! I plead the Fif!

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Comic Dave Chappelle's sketch on pleading the 5th before Congress is a classic, and it's a timely one too, because this week IRS official Lois Lerner (or as Colbert described her, Superman's former girlfriend) gave an opening statement to Congress, and refused to participate in the House investigation, and pleaded the fifth.





Personally, the only time I have ever seen someone plead the 5th was usually old footage of mobsters testifying before Congress (and duplicated in some of the Godfather movies), and usually the connotation always was "someone is obviously so guilty, who are they kidding, so that's the real reason they're going silent." And some of that was already kicking in when I initially saw Ms. Lerner's statement on the news, my heart sank and I thought "Wait, so what's she hiding!?"

We all hear a lot in the news and discussions about the really 3rd rail issues with the 1st and 2nd amendment, but the 5th certainly isn't considered a red button issue for many. And it's certainly not one a polarizing one. Yesterday on MSNBC The Spin Cycle's guest spot, Prof. James Duane from Regent University (a private conservative university / law school operated by Pat Robertson in Virginia Beach, Virginia) had a pretty interesting collequim on explaining what the 5th is, and how its one of the most misunderstood but in today's "over-criminalized" society, one of the most vitally important for a citizen because there are tens of thousands of statues and federal regulations that a person can break and not even know it.

Ms. Lerner's refusal to co-operate certainly raised the ire of Darryl Issa (the chairman of the House Committee, and a guy who knows the very important difference between acts of terror and terrorist attacks) believes that because Ms. Lerner gave an opening statement, she's lost her immunity to testify (i.e. plead the 5th). While Rep. Issa is a strong defender of the Bill of Rights and (every car owner to own one of his car alarms), he has no training in the law and apparently doesn't know how the 5th works, or Supreme Court decisions about what the 5th means for all of us.


Prof Duane explains all of this quite elegantly and isn't dry-as-toast-boring as you would expect any explanation of the law; and thought Ms. Lerner's example provided a great learning opportunity for most Americans. For my part, I learned that the 5th isn't limited to just criminal trials or Congressional hearings, but can be used at any level, even one on one with a police officer or any government official. And as Prof. Duane points out, seeing an official of the IRS invoke the 5th is richly ironic, considering the grief and fear they've caused ordinary citizens all the time. When conservative S.E. Cupp asked about a charge of perjury being brought against Ms. Lerner, Prof. Duane's answer may surprise you.

The video is behind this cut. And if it doesn't embed properly, click here for a direct link.

Comments

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Well there are lawyers who think that she waived her immunity and those who think that she can still has it. It's not just Issa's opinion.

As for Ms. Lerner's presumption of innocence, I think most people view it as not that she is guilty but that she pretty much refused to answer questions about if she has conducted the work we hired her to do. I don't think there would be as much fuss if she was just some private citizen and not a public official.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Well there are lawyers who think that she waived her immunity and those who think that she can still has it.

Well, that's pretty obvious. And none of them are Supreme Court Justices though, right?

[merig00.livejournal.com]

The way I read your post is that Issa is the only person who believes she waived her right. We all have our opinions, including the lawyers who went before the Supreme Court, otherwise we wouldn't need the Supreme Court.

Also thanks for posting Chappelle's skit. I've never seen this one before.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

The way I read your post is that Issa is the only person who believes she waived her right.

That's true, it was other Republicans on Issa's committee believed she waived her rights by giving an extremely general statement, and were very mad Issa dismissed her.


We all have our opinions, including the lawyers who went before the Supreme Court, otherwise we wouldn't need the Supreme Court.

Right, and it's not like the Supreme Court has rule extensively on 5th amendment protections. She's covered, and the House Republicans can huff and puff all they want. All bark and no bite legally. They're barking dogs chasing cars at this point. Issa said Ms. Lerner may be recalled to testify, but he knows better-- just like the House committee's legal staff.

[foreverbeach.livejournal.com]

I don't think any public official should have the right to take the 5th on matters related to their positions, policies, and government-related matters in general. For their private lives and criminal prosecutions, sure. But when you're a steward of public policy being paid by tax dollars, it's just not right. You should be subject to higher levels of transparency and should have greater protections as a whistleblower. Unfortunately, it seems the opposite will always be the case.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

If she has a fear of being prosecuted for what she did (and that's not all that over the top since Speaker Boehner wanted to know who was going to jail for the IRS scandal), even by your logic here. But your comment is completely at odds with the 5th, and Supreme Court rulings, so that doesn't matter.

[foreverbeach.livejournal.com]

Of course it's at odds. The Supreme Court exists to protect the government and the wealthy at the expense of the rest of the people.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

You left out Sheeple.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the notion that working for the government means you give up your Constitutional rights.

[404.livejournal.com]

Do you think that public officials should be held to a higher standard than your average Joe, especially when they are positions of power?

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Sure.

Just like how they shouldn't be above the law, they shouldn't be below it either.

[404.livejournal.com]

Do you think that public officials should be held to a higher standard than your average Joe, especially when they are positions of power?

[foreverbeach.livejournal.com]

It does in the military and it should everywhere else in government too.

[404.livejournal.com]

Why do you think she took the 5th?

[weswilson]

Because it's always wise to do so? There are few examples when one shouldn't?

[404.livejournal.com]

There are lots of good reasons for not talking, but I'm trying to figure out why she was not willing to answer the questions, given that she was head of the dept. It would be like if the president refused to answer questions when he gave press conferences.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Yeah, gotta agree with wes on this one. You plead the fifth so you don't self-incriminate, whether the self-incrimination is deliberate or accidental.

[404.livejournal.com]

But I thought the IRS did nothing illegal?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Wall St execs plead the fifth all the time. It's a running gag. Yet conservatives don't seem to think this means they're guilty. Of course not, they're from Wall St., a land of gods and angels who bestow upon our undeserved livings and grace us with their heavenly mana.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

You see, when you work for the government, silly things like rights don't apply to you.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

BENGHAZI!

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

That's somewhere around Houston, right?

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Ha!

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Man, the 5th is the 2nd's ugly sister! Gets no love.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Well... we wouldn't have the right in place if people weren't allowed to use it. That's the way I see it.

It certainly wasn't put in place so people can wildly speculate about what the person is hiding.