[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
At times of financial crisis, all sorts of economic models and ideas tend to pop up. A group of German economics experts recently wrote to Angela Merkel in an open letter to stop her efforts to save the euro (as if she wasn't already being aided in that from so many sides). Meanwhile, another faction of the guild of economists defended the efforts for strengthening the EU currency. Many Anglo-Saxon authors insist that the EU should print itself out of the crisis and inflate the economy, while others among their colleagues (mostly from continental Europe) counter with the argument that the most important thing right now is to tighten the belts and eliminate the enormous debts, and lay low until the storm passes. And the fact is, neither side tells the full picture. Here are some arguments in this direction.

The economics scientists must be very happy people. That's at least how the humanitarian scientists view them. "The economists do not predict, they calculate", is a meme that can be heard often among the latter. The sentiment is that the economists don't sweat too much over searching for the truth, because they kind of "hold it firmly in their hands". (No, it's not what you're thinking).

But there are some big cracks starting to become very visible on that construct, and some'd argue it has finally tumbled down now. The guild of economists seems irreparably split ideologically, and there's something like a quiet (and often, loud) war for The Truth(tm). One side protests against policies like Merkel's who's trying to save the euro; the other defends them. And searching for the middle ground seems out of question. But one thing is for sure. The Euro crisis has removed the economics experts from their pedestal of the infallible gurus that everyone looks to, and turned them into ordinary contemporaries who do all sorts of errors more often than not. Because, let's face it, economists also work with a very flexible and fluid material, they dwell in the realm of hypotheses, so it'd be naive to believe that they hold any grip on the absolute Truth. Not even the relative truth, come to think of it.

It's not hard to see why the predictions of the economics experts should always be viewed with a huge chunk of salt. The coffer of their theoretical knowledge is full with thought constructs that actually orginate in much more ancient fields of science. Some they've borrowed from theology and philosophy. For example, the notion of the Invisible Hand of the Market that's able to bring the senseless folk back to their senses, comes from the domain of moral philosophy. In turn, the very idea of this invisible hand itself, is rooted in theology. And this fave theory for the economists, that the markets always tend to try to strive for equilibrium, originates from the teaching of the "universal harmony" (as seen in many Eastern philosophies and religions).

In the wake of the European crisis, everyone with at least two brain cells has realized that despite all that amount of common sense that's inherent to the decision-making process, the markets are always capable of exhibiting systematic irrationality. And when the economists try to analyze such crises, they simply describe a reality for which they, themselves, have contributed, after having relied so heavily on some supposedly objective laws and patterns that, in reality, don't quite work as predicted. Which is to say that the economists are part of a world for whose creation they've contributed, being the influential thinkers and voices of "reason" that they supposedly are. By the way, many among them often like to boast of being "non-partisan", "classless" and "neutral", but somehow the end result is always the same: the wealthy holding even more power and wealth, and all sorts of social gaps widening.

The smarter among the economists have realized a long time ago that they should review their core premises, i.e. they need an Enlightenment of some sort. And this can't be a bad thing - after all, the philosophers have already gone through that process. They, too, used to believe in the absolute laws of human reason (or un-reason, depending on their school of thought) for a long time, until they noticed that the philosophers themselves, with their absolutist interpretations, had imported those laws, and imposed them onto their respective societies. And it was them who assumed the task of removing the absolutist element from there. That's an Enlightenment that the philosophers only benefited from, and everyone else along with them. So, I'd say, dear economists, you're welcome to join the club! Provided that you wanted to. ;)

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Date: 26/7/12 14:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I always like using this cartoon to show my view of economists:

Image

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Date: 26/7/12 15:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
Old joke: If you tak 20 economists and laid them end to end they would point in different directions.
Edited Date: 26/7/12 15:02 (UTC)

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Date: 26/7/12 15:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I always like Truman's wish to have only economic advisers who were amputees.

That way they couldn't say, "One one hand... but on the other hand..."

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Date: 26/7/12 14:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
> don't sweat too much over searching for the truth, because they kind of "hold it firmly in their hands". (No, it's not what you're thinking).

Curiously, in their case it's often exactly what we're thinking!

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Date: 26/7/12 14:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
and then this happened.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/07/25/584561/40-economists-republicans-reality/
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Date: 26/7/12 15:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Do you trust the economists?

As much as I trust the historians.

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Date: 26/7/12 15:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Hey now, historians at least have sources that are consistent and a methodology that is the same. And discuss events that people agree at least happened, if not why or how significant those events were.

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Date: 26/7/12 15:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
historians at least have sources that are consistent and a methodology that is the same.

Citation needed. : P

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Date: 26/7/12 15:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com
You've now put me and underlankers on the same side of the issue. I'd trust economists more if they were more like historians.

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Date: 26/7/12 15:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
I'll offer you a slightly less snarky answer than I gave ul, in part because I think I came across a little too glib.

When I say I trust them as much as historians I mean I judge them both based on the fact that they are working with limited, often contradictory evidence and often lack the means to accurately know what is true from what is false. So, it is not that I don't trust either sets of social scientists, it is that I do not make the mistake of deferring to economists because they festoon their arguments with complicated calculus equations and fancy graphs. Their conclusions are still a matter of perspective and judgment.

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Date: 26/7/12 16:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Mi no trusta no 'konomista!

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Date: 26/7/12 16:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mutive.livejournal.com
Depends on the economist.

Macro economists are practicing something only slightly more scientific than astrology.

A lot of micro is more verifiable than physics.

We talk about them as if they're the same, but they're wildly different disciplines.

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Date: 26/7/12 16:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com
In case someone hasn't seen it:

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Date: 26/7/12 18:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Economics is like psychology, in that everyone is using different words to explain the same phenomenon. The use of different words leads people to get confused, so when something doesn't add up, or if two statements are contradictory, they tend to reject entirely the existence of said phenomenon in the first place (ex: Psychologist A said Y but Psychologist B said X, so there is no such thing as schizophrenia.) Granted, whatever it is we're trying to explain exists, it's just we don't exactly what it is yet. At least with psychology you have people reexamining, refining, and rejecting Freud not a few decades after his work, whereas with economics, you're still beholden to people 3 centuries past or more.

Keynes, Mises, etc, these guys are like Freud. Freud was a genius, but Freud had limitations, biases and general cultural/gender ignorance to deal with. Furthermore, the basic questions of psychology always have a normative element to them: what is a healthy mind, why should it be that way, how do we promote such, who gets to decide, etc. Economics is the same, only more pronounced: what is a healthy economy, why should it be that way, how do we promote such, and who gets to decide. You can't get off the ground with economics unless you first make some very core and often very assumed judgments. Is a good economy one that provides for the most material wealth with the most productive work? Is a good economy one that provides for a more leisurely wealth with a more leisurely work style? There is no scientific answer to these questions.

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Date: 26/7/12 18:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Long answer, hell no.

In all seriousness though, If economics were a science it would be possible to test theories via experimentation. As far as I can tell one's standing as an economist has more to do with politics than how often one's theories actually pan out and therefore I view the title of "economist" as being only slightly less trust-worthy than that of "astrologer".

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Date: 26/7/12 20:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] politikitty.livejournal.com
A study based on the transactions that imperfect people make is supposed to be easy?

Data is incredibly difficult to get in these situations. Today we have better data than we have at any point in the last 200 years when empiricism was frankly impossible. But understanding and finding ways to short circuit human biases in ways that can work institutionally and cause no unintended consequences?

That's a great deal more complicated than figuring out how to make a scrap of metal fly.

I find it disturbing to think that we should dismiss concepts when every economic theory acknowledges that it rests on imperfect assumptions that must be corrected if we would want actual certainty. That's not how progress is made. We rely on the best data we have and make the best decisions we have, and we anticipate that regardless of the outcome we will learn from the experience. Economists are very clear that there is important work to be done (http://bigthink.com/power-games/empirics-and-psychology-eight-of-the-worlds-top-young-economists-discuss-where-their-field-is-going).

Yes, you could listen to the paranoid concerns of the fringe group. And maybe for these black swan situations, you would be correct from time to time. But you can't learn from rampant paranoia. You learn through critical thinking. We took the advice of economists because it was the best advice we had at the time.

There's this ridiculous idea that the right direction should always be easy and knowable. That somehow when things go wrong, it's due to a bad guy and not just imperfect people making imperfect decisions. It's a ridiculous assumption. We haven't even started understanding people well enough to create a perfect economy that always maximized welfare and happiness. Economists fully understand that. But people looking for policy decisions do not, and pretend [x] is a panacea that will fix everything.

(no subject)

Date: 29/7/12 09:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] root-fu.livejournal.com
Good post. [:

I'm clueless. In a sense, a person with an economics major may be similar to someone with a philosophy or science major. Sometimes, they operate at the whim of those who provide them with funding. The only demographic with the capital to pay them tend to be upper bracket income earners, corporations, etc. In a sense, economists are like hired guns who are paid to further an agenda, and the purity and science of it all may long since have been diluted by unfortunate conflicting self interest.

I wish I could paint a prettier and more romantic portrait of things... Not a big fan of negativity or cynicism, just unable to conceive of a better explanation.

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