Whites-only Christian gathering in Alabama

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/05/12583500-whites-only-christian-gathering-riles-some-alabama-neighbors?lite

A three-day whites-only religious conference — which will conclude with a flaming cross — in Lamar County, Alabama, has some residents upset at the racist implications while the minister complains that his freedom of speech is being violated.

"Yes, we believe that the Europeans and their descendants are the chosen people of God," according to the website for Christian Identity Ministries, which is holding the event with Church of God’s Chosen. "We believe this, not because we think that the white race is superior, but because there is overwhelming proof in support of this belief. We do not back down from this belief, because we are certain."

...

Some of the participants in the conference are Ku Klux Klan members, organizers said, though that was not a requirement.

"We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races, and we have nothing, not one bit of animosity, no racism whatsoever," Christian Identity Ministries Pastor William J. Collier told WIAT.


[chessdev]  Numerous times on this forum, it has been argued that actions that discriminate against people of color are not "racist" unless there is malice, animosity involved.  Meaning, one can "innocently" believe someone is a thief merely because that person is Black, and that wouldn't be racist because blinding anger wasnt present at the time..

Well here we have friggin **Identity Christians** who are actually arguing that they are not racist!!!  You get that!??!!  A straight-up hate group that advertises "whites only", BURNS CROSSES, and has KKK membership is claiming that to have "no racism whatsoever"...

Once that settles in your head, I wanted to use this article to show why so many people on this forum reject that notion and why the argument is silly to the core.  When a HATE GROUP can claim to not be racist...and they're saying the same thing some people on this forum have argued...  maybe those argument should be reconsidered?

Comments

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

While agree with your overall point, this is pretty flimsy argument by association.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Not really.

The argument of "We feel no anger therefore we're not racist" is fallacious all the way around.

The point of the post is to show that even blatantly, overtly racist organizations are now trying to come across
more "acceptable" by changing the meaning of the word racism to require howling at the moon and foaming at the
mouth - when that was never part of the definition.

So when a group has "Whites-Only meetings", Burns Crosses, has significant KKK membership, and they proclaim their racial superiority.... but turn around and argue "We're not angry about it, so we're not racist"

THAT is the point of how silly the argument they make is. I thought I was pretty clear about that...

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

How is it that? It's showing people who are explicit Neo-Nazi Lost Causesrs of the old sort (the kind who attributed to blacks inability to think with anything other than their dicks) who claim they're not racist as an example of the kind of disengenuous relationships with racism in its full, anachronistic form in practice and rhetoric, likewise showing that in modern times when people rely on the fear of the Raghead Elders of Makkah conspiring to overthrow the West and its precious bodily fluids, very little has changed.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Racism stems from ignorance more often then it does malice, it's something ingrained in our cultures and something we have to basically unlearn because we've been exposed to it since we were born. It is a kind of ignorance otherwise highly educated people can be guilty of.

I believe that to attribute racism to only malice does harm to the fight against it, hate crimes don't happen everyday but inequality sure does.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

The ones made by [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com].

[di-glossia.livejournal.com]

Your proof that this is a hate group is pretty flimsy- it looks to me like these people are just seriously misguided. They believe that Europeans are the chosen people of a Judeo-Christian God, follow Biblical laws that most Christians do not, and genuinely believe that the Jewish people are not physical descendants of the ancient Israelites. It could be seen, then, that they are under the belief that only the chosen people are allowed to worship with them- which is less racism than religious discrimination. Now that I have spent way too much time reading anything on that website with "race", "Jew", or "Anti-Semitism" in the title, I really can't say whether their beliefs are any different from a fairly exclusionary religious group with a belief in a shared heritage. They do seem to fall in line with Stormfront but, again, there are several religions I know of that withhold worship from non-initiated members, create an unwelcoming front to people they don't want to join, yet profess to have nothing against others.

What their beliefs seem to boil down to is this: they are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel. The Jewish people are descendants of other peoples mentioned in the Bible, but are not God's chosen people. Because of this belief, the Identity Christians follow kosher law, the laws set down in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and keep themselves separate from non-Identity Christians. So far, this isn't a whole lot different from Orthodox Jews. However, the Identity Christians also believe that you cannot be adopted into their group, citing Biblical sources. So no non-Europeans can join the Identity Christians. Is this racism or are these people just essentially practicing a strange, exclusionary sect of Judaism?

Cross-burning does predate the KKK, so I'm not sure why you think that's incontrovertible proof of racism. The association is highly unfortunate, but there's no reason to assume that it is done to intimidate, which was the purpose of cross-burning by the KKK. KKK membership also doesn't mean that the organization is racist; it means that some members are affiliated with a racist group. Since the Identity Christians' beliefs would not be hard to adapt to racial superiority, I can see how a member of the KKK might be interested in joining. That still doesn't make the whole group racist.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Your proof that this is a hate group is pretty flimsy

These guys believe more than just their "European Stock... such as"

Christian Identity groups include "The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord)
The CSA was an organization which believed that doomsday was imminent, and the 250-acre (1.0 km2) compound that was set up in Elijah became a community for its members. There they trained their members in paramilitary operations. The group strongly believed in white supremacy, and was strongly anti-Semitic.
...
CSA assassins would monitor the homes of their targets and actually practice mock assassinations of the targets with scoped rifles and even practiced attacks in a mock "Combat City".


the Phineas Priesthood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Priesthood)
The Phineas Priesthood or Phineas Priests (also spelled Phinehas) is a Christian Identity movement that opposes interracial intercourse, the mixing of races, homosexuality, and abortion. It is also marked by its anti-Semitism, anti-multiculturalism, and opposition to taxation.
...
One becomes a Phineas Priest by simply adopting the beliefs of the Priesthood and acting upon those beliefs. Members of the Priesthood are often called terrorists for, among other things, planning to blow up FBI buildings, abortion clinic bombings, and bank robberies.[


Aryan Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations)
Aryan Nations is a white supremacist or "white Christian separatist" religious organization originally based in Hayden Lake, Idaho. Richard Girnt Butler founded the group in the 1970s, as an arm of the Christian Identity organization Church of Jesus Christ–Christian. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has called Aryan Nations a "terrorist threat",[1] and the RAND Corporation has called it the "first truly nationwide terrorist network" in the US
...
In 1983, Robert Jay Mathews, who had visited the Aryan Nations compound many times, formed The Order, along with Aryan Nations members Dan Bauer, Randy Duey, Denver Parmenter and Bruce Pierce.[18] The Order's mission was to bring about a race war, and they committed a number of violent crimes, including murder, between 1983 and 1984.[3] Dennis McGiffen, who also had ties to Aryan Nations, formed a cell called The New Order, based on Mathews' group.[3] The members were arrested before they could follow through with their violent plans. Buford O. Furrow, Jr., who was accused of a shooting at the Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles, California, and of the murder of Filipino American postal worker Joseph Ileto, had spent some time at the Aryan Nations compound working as a security guard.[19]


A number of the groups that are Identity Christians also seem to have compounds, weapons, practice assassinations and war games, kill people, are Anti-semetic, and somehow keep ending up on FBI watchlists.


There is also this history tidbit:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm/

According to Professor Michael Barkun, one of the leading experts in the Christian Identity movement, "This virulent racist and anti-Semitic theology, which is practiced by over 50,000 people in the United States alone, is prevalent among many right wing extremist groups and has been called the 'glue' of the racist right."

The largest Christian Identity movement has traditionally been the Ku Klux Klan which was reorganized in 1915 by William Simmons, a Christian pastor. He had been inspired by the film The Birth of a Nation which portrayed the KKK as a champion of white civilization. The KKK slid into obscurity by the second World War, but was revitalized in the mid 1950's as a reaction to enforced racial integration in the southern US

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

and PSin response to your last sentence....they are racist BY DEFINITION!!!

If they are exclusive based on race...then they are racist....
WHY they are that way is unimportant. The fact they are is.

and my other link shows just a glimpse of the people they carry in their ranks

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

No, they're pretty obviously racist. This is like looking at a group of SS men covered in the blood and brain of a group of Jews in a mass grave and claiming this is not catching people red-handed in mass murder (the moreso since the theology these people speak of is akin to the Apartheid/Afrikaner view of Christianity and to the Nazi version of the Stadt Kirche mit Yeshua als ein Sturmbanfuhrer in kampfen mit Untermenschen.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I get the revulsion against what this group says and believes but until they act in a racist way, then it's just another case of freedom of association. What action would you suggest against them? How is it in action different than the membership policies of the Augusta Country Club?

HERE IS YOUR MASTER RACE

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

I don't think he recommends any course of action, just pointing out how they're racist despite saying they're not racist.

Whether or not they're actually racist, I don't care. I don't know why chessdev does.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Well, first they are racist...pretty much by definition.

Second - please look at this:
http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1496078.html?thread=120295950#t120295950

they also "act" in racist ways too...

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Wow I can't believe some of the rebuttals so far. This isn't against the OP because largely I agree.

Racism does not require intention. People act in certain ways based largely on unconscious assumptions that remain unchallenged.

Racism is institutional. The sum of these unconscious assumptions by the majority bleeds into institutional policy that favors a certain classes of individuals.

If you are white and believe your ideas to be the default, that is due to racism.
If you are black and have lower expectations in life, that is due to racism.
Get it? it's an -ism, it isn't personal.

It is completely possible to make a racist statement without intending to be racist. In such cases it is better to say "that statement was racist," not "you are a racist." You are racist if you fail to consider that what you said might actually be racist, because you may be perpetuating racism.

All -isms are constructed and as a culture we need to work toward deconstruction. Organizations like the one in the OP are working toward fortifying racist ideas, so it is completely fair to call it racism.

Personally I admit that I am racist; my goal is to continually be less racist. You need to get over it, racist isn't the worst thing you can be. The first step is to admit you're part of the problem. The second step is to reconcile and decide what you want to do about it.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Exactly, attributing and even equating racism to malice only plays what I call the "shame game". Something that does nothing but hinder attempts to be less racist in my opinion.

Over focusing on extreme, white supremacist groups ignores and permits the wider scope of racism out there. (because who are we kidding here, saying Europeans are God's chosen is the definition of supremacist)

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

These are the chuckleheads that are anti-Semites who deny Jesus was a Jew. Godwin's Law is fully applicable to hoary old anachronisms like these people who hold to the Hitler view that the real Jesus was a badass German warrior SS recruit as opposed to the incarnate Son of God who was deliverer and redeemer. So......yeah. I find it more interesting to see how the neo-Confederates who are all "Well you can celebrate a state that was all about slavery without being racist" explain the modern KKK's continuing to use the CS battle flag here.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Europeans and their descendants are the chosen people of God.

Europe covers everything from Iceland to Kazakhstan. I wonder of they mean only those who can trace their ancestry to Caucasus mountain tribes. I wonder how they prove that.

I'd almost like to see a bunch of American Christians of Kazakhstan descent show up. It would blow their quaint little redneck minds.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Kazakhstan is west of the Urals?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

So, um, Jesus and Paul weren't Christians. Good to know!

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Well jesus definitely wasnt.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

"We just want to exclude all non-whites and believe that white people are the "chosen people" how's that racist?"

Please, it isn't hard to see through their flimsy disguise

[musicpsych.livejournal.com]

"Europeans and their descendants..." I wonder how they feel about mixed-race people who have a European ancestor. Why can't they come?

I agree that animosity does not need to be present for something to be racist. However, I think that there is a certain level of animosity here. Like hanging up signs in town to advertise the event? It's kind of passive aggressive, like they wanted everyone to know that only whites were invited. I wondered if the "facilities" part was because they wanted separate bathrooms, drinking fountains, etc., for whites vs. other races. "All White Christians Invited" is similar to "Whites Only." As for the burning cross... There's a reason we don't use the swastika symbol any more, either, even though its original meaning was something entirely different.

I think the word "racism" is problematic, just because of the different definitions of the word people use, and I suppose the different litmus tests people use to decide if it applies. I also feel like it's too often used to write someone off, like an unforgivable sin, like there's no coming back from that. Not to minimize it, either, but that word has a lot of baggage.

That said, I'm sure they're loving the attention. Now, watch, it'll be a group of 10 or fewer people attending the conference.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

"Europeans and their descendants..." I wonder how they feel about mixed-race people who have a European ancestor. Why can't they come?"

Good point, by this definition all Latinos would be able to join, as well as plenty of African Americans.

[onefatmusicnerd.livejournal.com]

But but, Chris Rock said there were slaves in 1776, THAT IS RACISM!!!!!

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

*scratches head*

I don't get it, that's very true there were slaves during and long before 1776... in one form or another it's been a problem since the dawn of civilization.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Facilities to accommodate other races? This intrigues me... Do black guys need bigger toilets or something? Are there no powerpoints for Asians to plug their computers in to?

[fornikate.livejournal.com]

wow, people in this community will really bend over backwards to excuse racism.

[auntiesiannan.livejournal.com]

Hard to see skin color with your head up your ass.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

I for one am glad they claim not to be racist.

It forces people to think about things and realize not everything people say is true. ( :

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

and they're saying the same thing some people on this forum have argued

Since they aren't, maybe the problem is on your end.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

I was wondering when you'd dip a toe into the pool....

So you (among others) have said exactly this -- that racism requires malice... how do you believe
what you've said is any different from what the Identity Christians mentioned are saying?