[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
This subject is only incidentally related to stimulus and recovery, but it is still related. I like to make connections between different fields of thought. In adolescent psychology, we learn about the history of education, since public education is the defining epoch of development in Western youth psychology. The labor rights movement prevented people from working children to the bone, and forced employers to hire men to do men's work, and pay them a man's wage. This resulted in a bunch of kids without jobs, so we had to do something with them. This "thing" became junior and/or senior high school. Essentially, higher-grade primary education was a warehousing project designed to keep kids in check while waiting to enter the working economy.

Up until then, "high school" or its equivalent was something privileged kids got to attend. Or perhaps one gifted child in your family would stay in education, while the other children went to work. With the uniform enrollment of compulsory education, however, privilege became democratized, in a sense. We learned to look down on working folk in favor of educated folk. Staying in school became the aspiration and the ideal. This isn't wrong-headed per se, but it is a bit... remiss in its remembrance of why we "stayed in school". We didn't stay in school to become better people, or to enhance critical thinking, or to have a "vibrant democracy" (indeed, a "vibrant democracy" needs education at the baccaleureate level like a dogs needs to learn trigonometry to be a good dog.) We stayed in school because people were using child labor against adults and destroying society in the process. Child labor destroyed the family unit, undermined parental authority, and blurred the distinction between "fathers" and "bosses".

Education is important to a democracy, but we shouldn't then just automatically accept the idea that college education is important to a democracy. Remember, when everyone made those glittery quotes about democracy and education, they were making it from a standpoint of an 8th grade (or its equivalent) minimum. That is, people need to be literate, they didn't need to be college grads. We take literacy for granted, but literacy is 90 percent of what is meant by sustaining a democracy.

Whereas child labor did terrible things to people, and to families, institutionalized schooling has its own side effects. Rather than return children to their families, we handed them over to teachers and administrators, which has its own disagreeable bourgeois side-effects; namely the idea that working in an office is the penultimate end of every man, woman and child, and anything less means you're a lesser breed. (I speak of the bourgeois in cultural terms, not economic.)

So now it is the case that we find ourselves ridden with student debt and calls for government subsidy and support to help more people go to college. But going to college isn't a productive thing. We're essentially paying people not to work, or rather borrowing against the future so we don't have to work now. In any case, you're taking on more debt to reduce the productive output/capacity of a population. When you do that, you're not making up ground, you're just losing it.

We must not be deceived by the patronizing "respect" shown to the working class by bourgeois liberals and their ilk, either. Working for a living, rather laboring for a living is "respectable" in the sense that "other people do it and god bless them." Much like welfare, elements of the bourgeois "support" welfare if only because "Oh we'll never need it ourselves." It's something "other people" have to worry about, but you'll never take it, because, well, because you're better than that.

In much the same way, people "support" trades the way they support inter-racial marriage. It's fine, in theory, as long as their kids don't get involved with it. Oh we all respect a carpenter sure, but it's not like we want our kids to be carpenters. We spent all that time and money saving up for college! The only solution to this is once again forced enrollment. High school should end at the age of 16, and we should all be forced into a trade for two-years training time. If you want to go to college fine, but we ain't paying for it. This isn't tyrannical, or at least it isn't any more tyrannical than what we already have: forcing every child into 4 years of college prep for no particular reason other than it sounds good. In reality, we're prepping every child for a lifetime of mortgaged education expenses. Indeed, education debt cannot be bankrupted away. The mortgage is not on a piece of property, it is on your life, your soul, your person.

How will this help the economy? Well, for once it will boost wage receipts and reduce debt load. This helps us spend more money rather than take on more debt. It helps remain freer from the clutches of banks, and maintain some semblance of autonomy from the financial elite (however fleeting). Education is the next bubble, people have already said. Financing college is the new real estate, and we know how that works out.

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 13:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
This is a very good post, and it raises an unfortunate truth. Education *has* primarily arisen for reasons not having to do with education itself. And it is this factor ignored in most proposals to reform education.....

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 14:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Dude, you're bringing logic and reason into discussions on education.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 16:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Double icon icon. Nice.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 18:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 18:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 13:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Well, in a democracy, education at the PHD level is important. Which is why we're supposed to have a representative democracy where we vote for people based on them being smart, experienced, and capable leaders to make the hard decisions for us so we don't have to worry about being super skilled in country running decisions.

We don't do that though. We vote for the leaders who agree with what our particular echo chamber tells our ignorant asses we want.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 14:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 14:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 14:13 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 14:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Considering the last POTUS with a doctorate was Woodrow Wilson.......

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 14:34 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 03:30 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 13:06 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 7/7/12 00:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 7/7/12 00:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 04:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 04:43 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 13:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 05:49 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 13:07 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 06:08 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 13:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 15:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com
I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I have to note, though, that a reason for education inflation that goes unaddressed in your post is that as our societal knowledge base expands, professional fields and even trades are becoming more and more specialized. The Renaissance Man is a thing of the past in part because nobody has enough time to get more than the shallowest grounding in a wide range of subjects. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't also a whole lot of idle time-filling and disrespect for trades and institutional profiteering and all going on here, but higher education isn't entirely a shell game.

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 16:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
The institution of democracy depends on keeping the majority of people gullible and manipulable. An ivory tower education is essential to that whole process. It is important to have a factory that cranks out lies on a regular basis.

What I find disconcerting is the notion that everyone deserves an ivory tower education. If everyone was indoctrinated into the fabrication of lies, there would be nobody left to manage the Internet infrastructure.

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 17:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
my oldest already knows that he gets to make choices; if he doesn't want to go to college, he doesn't have to. He will have to get a job, however, and I'll certainly guide him towards as lucrative a trade as he's interested in.

College isn't for everyone.

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 18:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com
I think you are missing the trend here. The trend is that manual labor becomes less and less needed and, therefore, cheaper and cheaper. This is why it is moving to developing countries. Like it or not, most manual jobs can be done by the machine, and soon enough ALL manual jobs will be done with the machine. Knowledge is the only thing that will always be in demand.

In view of this it is irrelevant whether we think everyone should go to college or not- if you will not go to college and obtain specialized knowledge, you will be out of work. This is a simple reality of it. Today most jobs in the US are either in service, or in protected industry, which survives because of government regulation. But even services become more and more outsourced. Technology will make most of these jobs obsolete within 50 years, maybe less. Then you will need college degree for entry level position.

Now as to what you are suggesting - sorry to disappoint, but having more people in the labor force will not "boost wage receipts". On the contrary, you will get more people competing for jobs, higher unemployment, and lower wages. As for the education debt - there is a very simple solution which is practiced in most European countries already - free college education. Money spent on education is investment into the future and therefore in everyone's interest. Reducing education will not solve the problem, it will make it more severe.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 19:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 19:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 20:01 (UTC) - Expand
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 03:55 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 20:02 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com - Date: 5/7/12 23:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 00:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 18:16 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 18:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 19:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 19:34 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 19:46 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 19:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 19:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
Sounds reasonable - but before you convince children and their parents that a college education isn't necessarily for everyone, and before you convince the government that it doesn't need to give grants and loans to everyone who asks, you'll need to convince employers to ease up on requiring degrees for positions that shouldn't require them.

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 20:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
Unbelieveable.

I agree with almost all comments to this post!

*stars align, planets smack into each other, world ends in 2012 as predicted*

To actually add to the conversation here, as an unschooling advocate I'm also supportive of UnCollege (http://www.uncollege.org/) as a social movement.
Edited Date: 5/7/12 20:05 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 5/7/12 20:26 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] curseangel.livejournal.com
I think the biggest flaw in the thinking here is that there is no guarantee that the trades people go to school for will still be available by the time that kid graduates, or in five years, or whatever. The US used to be full of manual labor opportunities, but that simply isn't true anymore -- in this country, anything that CAN be outsourced, will be, because the profit margin of a corporation is considered more important than the lives and livelihood of the American people. I feel we would have a lot more manual laborers and trade-skilled persons in the workforce today if it weren't for the rampant outsourcing that has basically ruined many, many job opportunities in this country.

I agree that college can be overemphasized and that it simply isn't for everyone, but I don't think that undervaluing a good education is a good idea, either. Saying college is completely unnecessary for most people is.. well, false. The fact is, college teaches things that high school can't (because high school curriculum is largely decided by conservative, old, white men in Texas who dictate what the textbooks teach, up to and including rewriting history to erase important figures and events) or won't (because they will lose funding or be shut down if they teach, say, how birth control works). Basic college courses like history, writing composition, basic sociology, gender studies, and in an increasing number of schools, diversity studies, and that sort of thing enrich a person's life as well as adding basic knowledge which everyone should know. Further, higher education reduces crime and poverty levels (this has actually been proven -- the higher education level a person reaches, the less likely they are to commit crime, especially violent or property crimes).

I feel that the answer doesn't lie one way or the other. I think we should eliminate the rule that you can't get rid of student loan debt via bankruptcy. I think we should further subsidize and lower the cost of college for people who want to attend. I think we should present trade schools and colleges as equally viable options -- and they should actually be equally viable options.

(no subject)

Date: 6/7/12 04:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
"But going to college isn't a productive thing."

That's fundamentally incorrect.

(no subject)

Date: 6/7/12 06:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
I've been sitting on the bones of a post almost exactly like this one. Of course, I was going to through in references from Charles Darwin's relatives and other obscure luminaries and go on for about three times more words. I may still. You've left a lot of the good stuff out.

Still, well done.

(no subject)

Date: 6/7/12 12:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
Like anything else, once everyone has something, it's value diminishes. This is as true for credentials as it is for consumer goods. As an executive scientist in a technical field I have noticed a distinct drop in the quality of a college degree in general. In the long run we have both college educated and trade credentialed individuals who earn equal six-figure salaries. The college grads just get there faster.

I believe the necessity of a college degree was largely a cultural fad that already is fading in the US. Many people go to trade schools to learn specific skills. Some of these used to be taught in union training programs, but most are new skills for the 21st century. Looking at the economics of the situation this makes perfect sense. The risk of course is that in the future a particular skill may not be in demand so the individual has to be prepared for retraining, whereas the college grad normally has a wider skill set and can recover faster.

That being said, the population of highly educated people needs to be kept at a certain level. IMO college should be highly subsidized like public school, but ONLY for those students who can pass objective standards; everyone else can pay. How we determine objective standards is the subject of another debate, but I believe it is possible to set this up and improve it over time.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ja-va.livejournal.com - Date: 6/7/12 20:04 (UTC) - Expand

Credits & Style Info

Talk Politics.

A place to discuss politics without egomaniacal mods

DAILY QUOTE:
"The NATO charter clearly says that any attack on a NATO member shall be treated, by all members, as an attack against all. So that means that, if we attack Greenland, we'll be obligated to go to war against ... ourselves! Gee, that's scary. You really don't want to go to war with the United States. They're insane!"

March 2026

M T W T F S S
       1
2345 678
910 1112 1314 15
1617 1819 202122
23242526272829
3031