Germany says religious circumcisions are crimes:

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120626-43383.html

I think that this can't possibly end well. The Germans messing with Jewish circumcisions at this point in time is hardly the best move from a PR standpoint. And it is Jewish circumcisions, because Muslims tend not to circumcise kids at birth, they do that later when the kids are somewhat older. Personally I think circumcision as a cultural rite is.......unusual......but I hardly see where states should start stepping into these waters, because this is the kind of waters where people get up to their asses in alligators.

Comments

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Oh god, no. Not circumcision wank.

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

Ha! I'll start:

If circumcision as a religious rite should be legal, then so should female genital mutilation. Discuss.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

O Rly?

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Holy Roman Empire, Holy, Roman, Empire? :P

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I could get fairly rude here but you realize they aren't in any way equivalent?

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

I see what you did there

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Circumcision is worse than abortion. Discuss.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Worse for whom?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

The Reich as a whole.

[peamasii.livejournal.com]

Considering that abortion is a conscious adult decision, and circumcision is forced on an infant who has no say in it, I'd tend to agree with that statement.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize we aborted conscious adults.

[gillianinoz.livejournal.com]

Sometimes civilization outstrips custom. Take the practice of suttee for example.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The same suttee that Mughals, including the ones conservative Christians in the West back as genocidal thugs, outlawed on pain of death?

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Megadeath is better then Metallica. discuss.

Wow, Friday came early.

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

DETH! It's MegaDETH! Jeez.

And they both suck. :P

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I blame Bob Rock.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Megadeth should have been named "Consolation Prize."

[peamasii.livejournal.com]

Circumcision has been banned here in the NL for 2 years now as it's considered a violation of a child's rights.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

No, it's ruling against both Muslims and Jews, which as you said yourself in your post:

Muslims tend not to circumcise kids at birth, they do that later when the kids are somewhat older

Germany is ruling against both, it doesn't matter how old the child is, as it's a ban on the circumcision of children full stop.

You know my feelings on this, and while I certainly respect yours I think pulling the Reich card on this is cheap, pointless and completely misleading as this will have far heavier repercussions on Germany's large Turkish-Muslim population than their far smaller Jewish one.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

For a moment lets go with their idea that this is physical abuse whether you disagree or not.

Do you think religions should get a free pass on morality? Should western countries allow muslims to punish woman according to sharia law for instance?

I don't think you have any evidence at all for the idea that this is only to punish followers of said religions so lets not go there, instead its probably better to talk about whether you agree or disagree with the importance of this in the stated context- does it count as abuse to do this to a child?

[di-glossia.livejournal.com]

There are 120,000 Muslims in Cologne (Germany's largest minority is Turkish and there is a high percentage of Muslims among them), and 200,000- 202,000 Jews in the whole of Germany, so there are far more Muslims being affected by this ruling. The Cologne ruling affects both groups, since it applies to all children. Claudia Roth (Die Grüne), openly addressed this issue, and Westerwelle (FDP) criticized it (http://derstandard.at/1339639290995/Debatte-Beschneidungsurteil-loest-in-Deutschland-weitere-Kritik-aus). So it's not as though the higher reaches of the government are unaware of the PR issue or in agreement with Cologne's regional court.

I have no idea why you're saying it's Jewish circumcisions that are being primarily messed with since: a) there are far more Muslims than Jews in Germany (http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2007/90177.htm); and b) the case involved a four-year-old Muslim boy (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/religious-communities-debate-court-s-circumcision-ruling-a-841276.html). If you would read up about the case, what happened was that a four-year-old boy was circumcised at a clinic and had to be brought to the ER two days later because he was bleeding profusely. When the doctor who did the circumcision was acquitted, the case was appealed. It was eventually settled that, while the doctor was not to blame for the harm, the parents' permission was not more important than a child's well-being, and circumcision would have been fine if it had been postponed until the child was able to decide for himself.

It really comes down to the fact that male circumcision and female circumcision are considered wildly different issues in much of Western society. FGM is illegal in many countries because it is considered abuse and bodily mutilation, mostly because it is done to young girls regardless of their personal wishes. Male circumcision is seen as a religious issue, regardless of any harm done to a child as a result (for hemophilic infants, it is particularly dangerous if not handled carefully). Cologne's regional court was ruling on a case where circumcision caused actual harm to a child, making it far less than a clear issue.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Because Muslims do not as a rule circumcise *infants* which Jews as a rule do?

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

I am generally against touching children's you-know-what's for non-medical purposes.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I declare this thread a safe space for victims of male circumcision, who are otherwise ok and fine with it. Since I am a victim, my feelings are paramount and are to be utterly respected.