Voucher programs exposed again

[hikarugenji.livejournal.com]

http://wonkette.com/475136/louisiana-was-totally-cool-with-paying-for-kids-to-go-to-religious-schools-until-other-religions-show-up

People have been noting for years that voucher programs, which taken in the abstract might seem like a good idea, are usually just thinly disguised attempts to give money to Christian private schools. The supporters of them often come up with a lot of fancy sounding ideas that make it sound like it's "increasing choice" or whatever, but then cases like this come up and it's obvious that they don't care about choice. What they want is for everyone's tax dollars to go to sectarian, Christian education.

This type of conflict seems to come up any time one of these "religion in education" situations comes up. The problem is that the conservative type of Christians that support this are also unlikely to want forced education of any type that doesn't match their religious beliefs -- even other sects of Christianity, much less Islam.

The situation is not improved by the fundamentalist and right-wing narratives about the founding of the country that are fed to the less-knowledgeable in their ranks. A frightening number of people believe that the founding fathers intended to create a Christian nation and that the 1st Amendment's only real purpose was to prevent the federal government from elevating one sect of Christianity above the others, and to prevent any Protestant denominations from being outlawed. The "religious test" clause was obviously not intended to allow non-Christians into the government, but just to prevent banning of any Protestant denominations. And so on.

Comments

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

It seems like those conservative Christians realize that there's fewer and fewer people buying into their shtick so there's a desperation to attempts like this to indoctrinate the younger generation and make the public pay for it. The latter part I object to.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not surprised at all. That's what voucher programs are all about, after all -- forcing kids into religious schools so they can be indoctrinated with Christian/Catholic, Republican bullshit.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

There is an indoctrination program (http://www.jewsonfirst.org/goodnewsclubs.aspx) for public schools as well.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

As far as I can tell, those programs/clubs(?) aren't required, though. The curriculum in most public schools is not religious; afaik no public school requires, say, "religious education" as a class, and so on. There's a big difference.

Of course, this divide may not be so large in some Southern states... unfortunately.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I hope you're being sarcastic.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Not really, no. Most private schools are religious Christian or Catholic schools that don't teach proper science or health and seek to indoctrinate children into their religion.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Texas GOP: "We oppose the teaching of higher order thinking skills, critical thinking skills and similar programs...[which] have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012Platform_Final.pdf

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

It's as if the Founding Fathers wasn't aware of non-Christian religions out there, do people think Islam is new?

Also, I think every time the fundies get all fanatical whenever a mosque gets built here, or a Muslim private school gets built there... I think they're much, much scarier then whatever they're protesting.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

The Masons of the time knew quite a great deal about Islam. The Crusades opened up an intercourse with Islam that led to the Enlightenment. (The Alumbrados were Christians with a Muslim education.) This is not something that the Wahhabis (nor their Christian counterparts) would like known.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Yeah it's hard to believe they weren't aware of it in general, especially thinking, educated people like Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The Founders knew rather a bit about Islam. In fact some of the USA's first overseas ventures were fought against Barbary Pirates like the Dey of Algiers and the rulers of Tripoli.

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

"From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli."

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Sad part is, I don't really care if they have a neutral voucher system, but they are so frequently abused like this that it's not worth the trouble of the lawsuits. I also wonder whether this will pass constitutional muster at all, given that in neutral voucher programs (if I'm recalling correctly) the parent is supposed to decide where to spend the voucher money, not the state.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think some American Christians think Iran has the right idea and want to emulate it, and this is a symptom of that. The real goal has more to do with American Madrassas than it does with education, as can be seen by churches asspulling schools for money and getting it, when this is theoretically 'researched.'

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

The religious right are correct to a limited extent. There were founders who wanted to create a religious test that would exclude Jews, "Turks," and infidels from citizenship. What today's zealots fail to recognize is that this faction was soundly defeated by the Deists (who tended to be better educated, more eloquent, and more persuasive than the Christians).

BTW, Robert Ingersoll wrote quite a bit about how poorly Thomas Paine was treated by Christians. It made them come across as down-right un-Christian.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Wasn't Paine arguing for rationality for the sake of avoid an extremely stupid god?

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

That is one way to put it. His opponents argued that reason alone leads to policy based on calculation alone. They tended to ignore the dehumanization of people subjugated to divine right. You could say that his opponents preferred cruelty over reason.

[houndofloki.livejournal.com]

I like the concept behind vouchers and am all for increasing choice, but in practice the idea does have a lot of issues that aren't easy to fix. This is one of them. Vouchers are just one of those things that sounds great on paper but doesn't translate well to reality.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Sure it does. Just because you don't like the choice someone makes doesn't mean you can/should deny them the choice.

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

They do seem to have done well in Louisiana in terms of improving academic performance however. Check out the summary on the last page, the list of students who benefited from charter schools in Louisiana is pretty substantial.
http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/LA_CHARTER%20SCHOOL%20REPORT_CREDO_2009.pdf

This certainly is a problem that needs to be addressed, but it shouldn't be much of a surprise that Louisiana's voucher system would have a Christian bias. For years, the public schools were for poor kids and the private schools, many religious, were for the kids whose parents could afford them. Having a choice, even if it’s imperfect, seems to have done some good. There certainly are places where charter schools haven’t led to better academic performance, Louisiana doesn’t seem to be one of those places.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

Sort of like Communism, Laissez Faire Capitalism, Objectivism, and pretty much anything advocated by Ron Paul.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

All is according to God's plan!

Secularism isn't so bad.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

are usually just thinly disguised attempts to give money to Christian private schools.

Assertion, evidence not present. There are many different supporters with many reasons; focusing on one group and one reason is disingenuous.

School choice programs that aren't religiously based, but still opposed by the educational establishment:
http://ij.org/arizona-education-savings
http://ij.org/indiana-school-choice
http://ij.org/douglas-co-colorados-scholarship-program
http://ij.org/genier-v-larson

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

Oh look, the exceptions that prove the rule.