White Phosphorus -- an Historical Perspective

[paft.livejournal.com]

Watch on YouTube

Last week:

“I can tell you with certainty that White Phosphorus is absolutely not being used.” IDF Spokesman

This week:

“Any munition that Israel is using is in accordance with the international law. Israel does not specify the types of munition nor the types of operations that it’s conducting.” IDF Spokesman

A now declassified Pentagon Intelligence document on Saddam Hussein's use of White Phosphorus, 1995:

POSSIBLE USE OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS BY IRAQ IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS; AND CURRENT SITUATION OF KURDISH RESISTANCE AND REFUGEES (U)…
IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS

IRAQ'S POSSIBLE EMPLOYMENT OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS -- IN LATE FEBRUARY 1991, FOLLOWING THE COALITION FORCES' OVERWHELMING VICTORY OVER IRAQ, KURDISH REBELS STEPPED UP THEIR STRUGGLE AGAINST IRAQI FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ. DURING THE BRUTAL CRACKDOWN THAT FOLLOWED THE KURDISH UPRISING, IRAQI FORCES LOYAL TO PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ…THE WP CHEMICAL WAS DELIVERED BY ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS (NO FURTHER INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).

…THESE REPORTS OF POSSIBLE WP CHEMICAL WEAPON ATTACKS SPREAD QUICKLY AMONG THE KURDISH POPULACE IN ERBIL AND DOHUK. AS A RESULT, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KURDS FLED FROM THESE TWO AREAS AND CROSSED THE IRAQI BORDER INTO TURKEY.

The use of White Phosphorus is not ruled out in every military situation. According to Global Security.org, while the Geneva Convention prohibits the use of Incendiary Weapons” (defined as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed set fire to objects or cause burn to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target,”) this definition does not include:

i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signaling systems; 
(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burns to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.

Jim Clancy: "That means, it’s going to cover their fighters, cover their tanks as they move into some of these areas, the howitzer’s fired overhead, the smoke comes down, the phosphorus comes down, moves everybody out of the way, they get out of the way, and then there’s smoke to cover their movement.” (emphasis added)

1995 declassified document: IRAQ USED WP IN ERBIL AND DOHUK BECAUSE THEY WANTED THE KURDS TO PANIC AND FLEE FROM THE AREA.

Saddam Hussein rains White Phosphorus down on people to get them to “panic and flee from the area” and he gets written up in a Pentagon document summarized as “IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION.”

Israel uses White Phosphorus to “move everybody out of the way” in Gaza on people who can't go anywhere and….

Comments

White phosphorous doesn't kill people, people kill people

[savagemind.livejournal.com]

I'll care about white phosphorous when everybody starts shooting paintball caps instead of bullets. One AK-47 can kill countless innocent people and cause untold human suffering, so a jacketed 7.62mm isn't a humane alternative to anything.

There is no kinder, gentler way to make war. Oppose the war--that's the real crime--not the implements.

Re: White phosphorous doesn't kill people, people kill people

[paft.livejournal.com]

There are rules of war that minimize its horrors. That's what the Geneva Conventions are all about.

There is no kinder, gentler way to imprison human being who commit crimes. That doesn't mean we throw away the laws that make imprisonment less inhumane.

Outlawing war is not practical. (What was the "moral" global response to the rise of the Third Reich?) Laying down rules of warfare -- and enforcing them -- is.

[paft.livejournal.com]

I've already covered that.

[ihatepeoplealot.livejournal.com]

I've been following the situation in gaza pretty closely and this CNN report that a week ago IDF said they weren't using WP is news to me.

Do you happen to have any sources for that other than this CNN reporter?

[paft.livejournal.com]

Well, that particular quote comes from a statement that was made directly to CNN, so any other uses of that quote are going to cite CNN.

Do you think it's likely that CNN just made it up?

[lordtwinkie.livejournal.com]

i find the term white phosphorus offensive, can we call it something else like pigment neutral phosphorus.

[ghoststrider.livejournal.com]

WIN!

2 standards are better than one

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

It's always good to have two standards by which to judge people. When Iraq does something atrocious it's a crime. When Israel does something atrocious it's self-defense. If you argue otherwise, you're a Hitler-loving anti-Semite.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I'm a new member, and this is my first post in this Comm...so...here goes:

When war is the topic at hand, a society will do everything at its disposal to win. It doesn't help in this particular case that the Gaza regime isn't even friendly with the more moderate one in the West Bank. Israel's actions here are very disturbing indeed, but the Israeli government is pretty moderate. To judge by Uncle Sam's behavior in equivalent situations (with Indians, frex)...Israel letting the Palestinians keep any territory for their own at all is pretty damn lax.

In time, the Jewish state part of Israel will have to go anyhow, the Arabs (Muslim and Christian) are growing exponentially. The Israelis will reach the point of no return very soon...and thus Israel will become a secular state.

Lots of people both Israeli and Palestinian are going to die first, though, unfortunately. :(

[paft.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you're driving at here.

Are you saying there should be no rules when it comes to warfare? Should the Geneva Conventions be jettisoned?

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

another white phosphorus smokescreen.

[paft.livejournal.com]

How so?

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

War is never fought with Geneva Conventions in mind. No country or entity fighting says, "oh we better not do this because it'll break Geneva Conventions" Rather it's a guideline obeyed when convenient and ignored otherwise. It is a great tool for peacenik protesters to condemn wartime actions, but the real consequences of breaking the rules of war are inconsequential. Truthfully, nobody gives a shit.

The use of WP is a muddy point. If used as a smokescreen, alright. If used to terrorize residents with terrible burns it's bad. If used as a smokescreen in a densely populated area, it will no doubt terrorize the population unintentionally all while providing the intentional smoke cover. Is this really a deliberate act of disobedience to Geneva Conventions?

[paft.livejournal.com]

a: War is never fought with Geneva Conventions in mind. No country or entity fighting says, "oh we better not do this because it'll break Geneva Conventions"

World War II was. The United States and England did not torture and abuse their prisoners.

a: If used as a smokescreen in a densely populated area, it will no doubt terrorize the population unintentionally all while providing the intentional smoke cover. Is this really a deliberate act of disobedience to Geneva Conventions?

When the forces lobbing phosphorus know it's going to burn and terrorize the civilian population, then the burning and terrorizing of the civilian population is not "unintentional."

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

Well if Israel is doing this they should be held accountable. BUT I know Hamas has a long record of false and or altered information to make themselves look the victims. See using schools and such and making certain that "innocent" victims are near their missile site when the use them. In addition the "wounded" person who when off camera gets up and then rejoins the protest. Or selling a explosion of Hamas ammunition in a accident that resulted in civilian deaths as a attack by Israel even though the event took place years apart.

It is possible that the smoke systems and night light systems could produce a shower of some sort that includes phosphorous. It is also possible that the "victims" in the video may well not be victims. It is also possible that Israel did use phosphorous in the attacks and those victims are truly victims. Bottom line is we don't know and the video report above lacks the research to come to a clear conclusion in such matters.

[paft.livejournal.com]

You're seriously suggesting that in a heavily populated area under a bombardment that includes the use of phosphorus shells, Hamas would have to find someone to fake being a burn victim? And the doctor and hospital are in on it? That guy in the hospital bed in in stage makeup? That bandaged kid ran out and played soccer as soon as the reporters left?

PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS

[justgoto.livejournal.com]

As I said, here (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/12798.html?thread=413438#t413438); it says, "PHOSPHOROUS" not "Phosphorus".

Spelling and etymology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorous#Spelling_and_etymology)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary the correct spelling of the element is phosphorus. The word phosphorous is the adjectival form of the P3+ valency: so, just as sulfur forms sulfurous and sulfuric compounds, phosphorus forms phosphorous compounds (see e.g. phosphorous acid) and P5+ valency phosphoric compounds (see e.g. Phosphoric acids and phosphates).

Iraq’s Chemical Warfare Program (https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5.html)

A former nerve agent expert indicated that Iraq retained the capability to produce nerve agent in significant quantities within two years, given the import of required phosphorous precursors...
...
Pesticide research and development was a secondary responsibility for MSE. Post-1988, MSE unsuccessfully attempted to purchase a pesticide production plant from a number of leading companies worldwide, in order to expand its background knowledge in organophosphorous production.
...
ISG searched for chemistry technology necessary for production of key CW precursors, such as processes involving phosphorous and chlorine.
...
Chemical plants that used or produced phosphorus compounds were a priority because Iraq’s ability to quickly recover a nerve agent production capability was dependent on its access to phosphorus-based compounds.

Get the idea?


this definition does not include
We use phosphorus in defense (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Flare-(countermeasure)) also. Just an example of how a photograph of a phosphorus air burst (http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=gaza+Phosphorus+airburst&btnG=Search+Images) does not necessarily mean they are using them offensively.

Re: PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS

[paft.livejournal.com]

J: Get the idea?

Not really. You seem to be claiming that "white phosphorus" and "white phosphorous" are two entirely different things when in fact it just looks as though this Pentagon document is using an incorrect spelling of the word "phosphorus." Can you cite any example of the term "White Phosphorous" being used anywhere else? I can't find it anywhere in anything you've cited, though the link on Iraq's Chemical Warfare program contains several references to "White Phosphorus."

J: We use phosphorus in defense also. Just an example of how a photograph of a phosphorus air burst does not necessarily mean they are using them offensively.

I deal with this in my seeder post.

[lather2002.livejournal.com]

Sigh, the Israelis should just get it over and done with by vaporizing the Arabs occupying the so called "West Bank and Gaza Strip". There would finally be everlasting Peace :D

[paft.livejournal.com]

Final solution, eh?

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

Are the paragraphs that are entirely written in capital letters meant to represent the more important parts of your post or they express excessive emotion?

[paft.livejournal.com]

It does help to actually check out the links.

The paragraphs are written entirely in capital letters because they were cut and pasted from the original, which is in capital letters.

The bolded sections are an attempt to make reading easier by highlighting the most significant sections.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Again with the lack of logical thinking.

Re: White phosphorous doesn't kill people, people kill people

[savagemind.livejournal.com]

Didn't you leave antifem because...?

I did, actually. You seem to inspire that in those around you.

...a ban limited to civilian areas isn't still a ban.

Classic Yoder once again. You said that those weapons were banned, not that they were banned in civilian areas and that, technically, neither Israel nor the United States have signed off on this ban. Significant difference there.

not because these weapons are the most precise and effective are ensuring quickd death.

You aren't suggesting that bans on nuclear and chemical weapons are because they don't kill efficiently, are you?

I said what SOURCE ... I didn't ask what ammunition exists.

Do you deny the existence of HEI munitions? HEI and HEIAP rounds are designed to accomplish the very thing you say they are incapable of doing, I don't know what else you could want.

I guess if we just rape SOME of the enemies, it's ok.

Now you're trying to pin me as a rape-supporter? Jesus, are you and Paft related? Desperation smells so sweet.

With regular mortars, all there is to die from is the explosion itself and some shrapnel

Because I don't feel like going off on any tangents (as if I even had a choice at this point) I'm going to ignore the way you just loudly demonstrated how little you know about this stuff. Anyway, the shrapnel from an explosive shell can lead to some very long and painful deaths. You know this. Also, what about HEI shells?

I'm asking for that elusive "source" thing that covers all the secondary effects, not just the main target.

Secondary effects? I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Are you asking if some people in an APC that was hit with HEIAP rounds would survive but be hurt or suffer excruciating wounds? Of course. In a closed environment they might even burn to death.

Since when it is it my obligation to provide your sources?

Since when is it my obligation to educate you? Maybe next time, if you don't know what you're talking about, you should butt out or politely ask some questions rather than jump in waving your cock around in some juvenile "victory" display.

insult and discount my argument based on who I am.

Yoder, you get on people's nerves. People have tried to counsel you about it. I know I and others have. That you don't see how frustrating you can be to deal with is astonishing. It is impossible to have a mature conversation with you. Period. Rather than play your game I prefer to avoid the conversation entirely. If you don't like it, change your shit.

You are engaging in the same kind of behavior that you denounced in antifem

I didn't "denounce" antifem, I just got tired of it. I didn't cry or throw a fit, I quietly left and some people asked me why and I told them. I tried to leave with zero drama. I don't know if you took my leaving personally or something but that you'd consider my choice not to participate in your community anymore "immature" says more about you than me.

The existence of non-lethal grenades clearly refutes that

With that statement I was trying to point out that there is no kind way to kill a person, not deny the existence of flashbangs.

Which is why you're a) still arguing against me and b) are ignoring the half of the argument that you can't refute? Keep on with the macho grandstanding.

A) I have a hard time saying no. You should be thankful, since I'm one of the few people on LJ stupid enough to even bother getting into a wankoff with njyoder. This is my last response to you in this thread, though. If you miss me, you know my screen name.

B) I ignore the fluff, the cock-wagging, and the non-points. I don't feel the need to respond to every accusation you make. Time and patience are major factors. Besides, this comment is already 300+ chars over the limit as of now...give me a break.

Keep on with the macho grandstanding.

This from the guy who acts like every argument on the Internet is a 1v1 battle on Halo 3, complete with teabagging. You aren't fooling anyone, Yoder.