(no subject)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I am not a lawyer. But I thought that claiming self-defense when you kill another person must be shown in court.

Doesn't our legal system say that we are innocent until proven guilty? Well, when someone admits to being guilty of something, but says, "no need to punish me for what I did! It's okay because XYZ" doesn't XYZ need to be shown, in court?

Why didn't Zimmerman get arrested, arraigned and put on trail and his lawyer would be forced to offer an affirmative defense, in court? That yes, I did kill him, but it was justified. As opposed to just being let go on his word? What the hell?

Sure, maybe I'm late to this bandwagon, but that no affirmative defense was made in court, and merely as a statement to the police--mindboggling.

I knew this case was all sorts of fucked up, but holy shit.

And if you hadn't heard, there's this too:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1232157,full.story

Comments

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I am not a lawyer. But I thought that claiming self-defense when you kill another person must be shown in court.

Not according to the law put in place in Florida, which is why Florida's law is problematic (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1390428.html).

Zimmerman was taken in by the police, and they had no reason to hold him. More information continues to come out, this being somewhat recent (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012), and we haven't even heard fully from Zimmerman.

This is why rushing to judgement is so bad.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, any law that says that murder in self defense does not need to be shown in court should be abolished ASAP.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

And I'm not looking to rush to judgement. I'm looking to rush to a COURT where judgement ought be made. Not by the local PD who arrive on the scene and just trust the shooter.

[oslo.livejournal.com]

Not according to the law put in place in Florida, which is why Florida's law is problematic.

For an indication of how the relevant law is actually applied, and not just Jeff's take on it, see here (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1390428.html?thread=110991452#t110991452).

Zimmerman was taken in by the police, and they had no reason to hold him.

Note that this assertion is spurious on its face. As explained here (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1385899.html?thread=110317739#t110317739), the police likely had "probable cause" to hold Zimmerman because there seemed to be sufficient evidence to support a reasonable belief that his self-defense claim was not lawful, even if the police could also reasonably have believed that Zimmerman was acting lawfully.

More information continues to come out, this being somewhat recent,

Note that the linked story is not exactly objective, and the pseudonymous account provided therein is contradicted by other witness testimony. The fact that it is "recent" does not have any relevance on the credibility of the account.

and we haven't even heard fully from Zimmerman.

Which is true, partly because he's gone into hiding.

This is why rushing to judgement is so bad.

Not that it stopped you from fully vindicating the police at every opportunity. As I've previously argued here (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1390428.html?thread=111031132#t111031132), "when your amateurish approach to the law means you come out and support a racist and/or incompetent police chief's ass-covering statements about why he couldn't arrest a guy that pursued, confronted, and ultimately killed an unarmed 17-year-old, and when you do so with an air of authority and expertise - then you're just being irresponsible, and reprehensibly so."

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

It's funny because even the author of the law says it shouldn't apply to situations like that.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

They had a body on the ground and they **didnt give him a drug or alcohol test as is usual when someone is killed** -- and it begs the question as to whether or not "they had no reason to hold him"

Sadly, the cops botched this up a number of ways so we dont know there was no reason to let him go either

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

An officer can only arrest someone if they have a belief that a law was broken. Under criminal statutes in Florida, self defense is a reasonable defense. The arriving officer observed that Zimmerman had a CCW, had injuries to his face, and grass stains on his clothes which indicate a struggle took place. As such, allowing Zimmerman to avoid arrest pending further investigation was acceptable.

The BPP is proving this is not about justice. Now Spike Lee is giving out Zimmerman's address on Twitter and others are reposting it advocating violence.

Look, just go lynch the guy and get it over with.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I'm not advocating violence. I understand why some might--I'm advocating we put this through the court system.

Any civilian who takes the life of another person should either: be forced to show, in a court of law, that they were justified in taking the life of another. Or, serve a prison term for violating the law. Either way, it needs to be processed through the court system.

I'm not denying that self-defense is a reasonable defense. I'm saying that police officers are not supposed to be judge and jury. The police don't make the decision if Zimmerman's self-defense claim is approved--that's for the courts. Or at least it should be for the courts. Again, IANAL.

[oslo.livejournal.com]

An officer can only arrest someone if they have a belief that a law was broken. Under criminal statutes in Florida, self defense is a reasonable defense. The arriving officer observed that Zimmerman had a CCW, had injuries to his face, and grass stains on his clothes which indicate a struggle took place. As such, allowing Zimmerman to avoid arrest pending further investigation was acceptable.

It was acceptable, sure. The problem is that the police are claiming that they were not only permitted to let Zimmerman go but they were compelled to let him go, because they didn't have "probable cause." But this is incorrect; they lacked probable cause only insofar as it would have been unreasonable to believe that Zimmerman was not acting lawfully in his self-defense. Nothing yet adduced on this matter makes such a belief unreasonable.

The BPP is proving this is not about justice. Now Spike Lee is giving out Zimmerman's address on Twitter and others are reposting it advocating violence.

While I don't approve of BPP's bounty, I do think we should think carefully about whether this should be a wake-up call that the way police treat members of certain racial minorities, and especially blacks, has reached a breaking point in this country.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

No it wasn't. The tapes showed that Zimmerman deliberately pursued Martin and provoked a fight and shot him in the chest when he lost. Both the tapes *and* Martin's cell phone. Why people want to excuse a trigger-happy maniac shooting someone else is beyond me, it illustrates the reality of all the stereotypes of Second Amendment Remedies types as being trigger-happy hypocrites who will literally defend anything, no matter what happens, if there's a gun involved.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

Oh and this...

The party said they would not release the names of donors nor would they provide documentation to support the existence of donations.

Seeking funds to perform an illegal act while hiding the evidence of collecting said funds has to be against RICO.

Holder won't do anything about that though. That's a given.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I'm certainly not defending the idea of putting out a reward for him.

But, ya know, all they'd have to do is claim self-defense and they could shoot him.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

I am reticent to comment on anything related to the court of public opinion. This needs to be brought to actual court and resolved. The larger issue is a very bad law extending the castle defense to a traveling circle of excused deadly force surrounding each person. Castle defense belongs only in one's home and property to be used against the uninvited.

Believe it or not (I didn't until I spoke to a cop off the record) in my state, if someone walks into my house and starts stealing things without threatening me, my only recourse safe from prosecution is to leave.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

CSB: A guy I know has a F-I-L who had to testify on behalf of the gov't concerning a case where a guy was arrested for murder after shooting a guy who broke into his house. It turns out that the prosecution argued that taking the gun out, setting it on the table loaded while telling the guy he would shoot him if he broke in and not attempting to call the police before that was premeditation.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

No your recourse is to call the police. If the person tries to stop you, you can fight back.

[404.livejournal.com]

When will Obama make a public call for calm and civility in light of the NBBP's stoking the fires with their illegal bounty on a fellow citizen?

Oh, and can you imagine the firestorm that'd be happening if the NBBP was the KKK and they were calling for a bounty on a black man resulting from a killing of a white man?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

If it was, we know how that thread would go.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

You really believe that nonsense??

Sadly, you probably do.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

When will Obama make a public call for calm and civility in light of the NBBP's stoking the fires with their illegal bounty on a fellow citizen?

Its been over twelve hours, and nothing yet but tacit approval, I suspect Obama is a card carrying member of the NBBP (despite the fact that he is the leader of those who declare them a hate group).

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Yes, because all the same people who deny there's any racial issues with this would claim that this, too, is perfectly all right because By God there's nothing racial about people who want to recreate old veterans' clubs.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Shoot first laws suck.

And yes, self defense should be argued in a court room, not on the crime scene.

He should have been arrested and then he can argue self defense.

What the Black Panthers did was avoidable, and that is EXACTLY why Zimmerman should have been arrested.

[malakh-abaddon.livejournal.com]

Court is about the end of the line in the criminal justice system. Look, we have the alleged crime, Zimmerman murdered Martin. The police responded, and investigated his side of the story. If his chain of events did not match, they would/should have arrested him. However, after the investigation, he was cleared and the matter was dropped. So to me that means that his story about what happened lined up with the evidence that they found at the scene, so they decided to drop it.

Now that does not mean they cannot come back at some later time, reopen the case, re-investigate the case, arrest him, then start criminal proceedings against him. If the grand jury feels that there is merit to this case, it will move into the trial phase of the case. At that point, he can cop a plea to a lessor charge, or plead not guilty. At the trial, he would be forced to give a full defense as to why the killing of Martin was or was not self defense. At which time a jury or judge will determine if the act he committed was or was not self defense. Keep in mind at any point from the time of the grand jury hearing, till a possible conviction, he can cop a plea.

We are supposed to be innocent till proven guilty, however it is the reverse of that, because people judge based on the information presented to them in the media. Was he let off on solely his word, possible. I would say they investigated the matter, out of fear of being racist, and what have you, just to cover their backside. Thank you Jeff, I had not heard there was a witness, and possible grand jury hearing. If the grand jury feels the witness is honest, and truthful, it may still go to court, given that only one side is present at that hearing. Otherwise this could keep going for several years.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

FWIW...

supposedly the police report-

http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

That police report is bullshit and shoddy.

They describe Zimmerman's injuries but no description on whether the "black male"
on the ground had any apparent visible injuries.

Also no description if Zimmerman appeared intoxicated or not

No description of the eyewitness testimony although eyewitnesses are identified and named in the report.

No testimony from Zimmerman himself as to what happened


If that is the police report, that is some serious shoddy work

[dwer.livejournal.com]

why? Because the cops didn't do their job. That's it.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Oh, great, another long thread about why white people shooting a 17 year old black teenager is perfectly hunky-dory and there's nothing wrong with it whatsoever and it has nothing to do with race, because by God Hispanics aren't white (someone tell Jessica Alba and Cameron Diaz this).

[404.livejournal.com]

I guess you have been reading another OP?