Talk politics.

What's he talking about, dear?

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err, did you watch the talk?

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Well sure but, as discussed recently (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1251053.html?thread=99696109#t99696109), the idea behind Rule #8 (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/261191.html) (namely: the requirement for a personal opinion in posts) is pretty simple:

"Hey guys, watch this video, it's interesting and I agree with it". -- not good

"Hey guys, this video talks about X and I agree with it because Y". -- good

I think it's very simple, don't you think?

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I thought I did put in a short thing about what I thought. I'll update the post and put in something more indepth.

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That would be perfect, thanks!

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That good enough? :)

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Absofuckinglutely. :-)

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rick-day.livejournal.com

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He's so good. He hit the exact problem in having race discussions, especially on the internet, that when someone has it pointed out to them that there was something racist in what they said, they immediately assume you are calling them a racist. It shifts the conversation from what could be a constructive exchange to a defensive and antagonistic argument.

No one is perfect when it comes to race issues, but we should try to improve when problems are pointed out to us. To not try makes us stubborn and a bit of an asshole.

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geezer-also.livejournal.com

If it was pointed out that way you would have a point.
Actually, I should say when it is pointed out that way, because it does happen (rarely to be sure)
One of the best discussions I ever had on that topic was with *futurebird* and I even changed a behavior because of it. (strangely enough it was after 3 or 4 discussions where she had gotten me rather riled up :D)

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meus-ovatio.livejournal.com

I generally agree. Race language has been co-opted by self-righteous crusaders who carry out their internet inquisitions which much shrieking and pointing of fingers. They put the racial stereotype of "Pharisaical" to shame.

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I'd say the real problem is that there's more than one definition of racism. You can mean that someone said something offensive in terms of race as one. The other is a damning accusation of another's character.

I'd say the real problem is that race relations now operate on "proving" you're not a racist and a the fear of the stigma of being labled a racist. Yeah, fear and stigma. THAT'S the way to build a better society.

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while I'll agree that being called a racist is a very serious accusation, the whole point of his speech is that someone pointing out that you (general you, not you you) have said something that is racist does not mean you are a racist, or that they are calling you one. Did you even watch the video?

No one is asking anyone to prove they are not a racist. They are asking people to recognize when they say racist things, even unintentionally and work to improve on that.

Edited Date: 4/12/11 03:13 (UTC)

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I was speaking in the general sense, not about the video. And you couldn't be more wrong about the "prove you're not a racist" thing. So much in modern race issue is nothing but that.

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If that's the way someone is taking the criticism, sure. Much of Jay Smooth's videos and speeches are about ways to move beyond that thinking, to better understand the discussion.

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More making the criticism, I think.

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gunslnger.livejournal.com

~~No one is~~Occasionally, some people are not asking anyone to prove they are not a racist

FTFY

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I think though that you're missing a point Jay Smooth is making in that the conversation seems to be flawed on both ends. Not just that people who are being told what they're saying and doing is wrong but also that the way we perceive others needs to change.

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What I got from it was he was saying that saying prejudicial things does not make us bad, or racist, that we all carry some prejudice within us. I didn't pick up anything where he said anything about the other side needing to change their perception, other than recognizing the above. Can you point me to where he says that?

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underlankers.livejournal.com

To actually discuss race means acknowledging a lot of blunt truths that most white people aren't interested in without that turning into myopic self-absorbed self-loathing or alternately self-congratulations on doing nothing and punishing the people that do something. The Internet being what it is it favors the stupid and idiotic over the normal, more rational approaches, and those approaches themselves appear rather less often with race offline than they should.

To actually, meaningfully discuss race means discussing the whole associated complexity of racism and its continued existence, and that to put it bluntly is extremely difficult to do right. As a rule if you say you're color-blind and not-a-racist, you need to double-check that strongly, if you're working on acknowledging the existence of privilege in all its forms and combatting it it must be accepted it's a continual process and it is never fully handled any more than any vice ordinarily is.

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musicpsych.livejournal.com

In my experience with online conversations about race, it is best to avoid most of them. They seem counterproductive, and the most common result seems to be anger and frustration.

I like what he said, and I agree. While saying they should be like "you've got food stuck in your teeth" might be a bit too much, they do tend to escalate pretty quickly.

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The escalation is, IMO, due mostly to people not being able to put their personal feelings aside and discuss things in a wholly logical and rational fashion.

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geezer-also.livejournal.com

I'm going to agree with you.
Even though I don't think it's only on the internets, but it is so much easier to have the discussions in RL.

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musicpsych.livejournal.com

That's probably true. Though it probably is a difficult topic for some people to not get emotional about.

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Controling your feelings is part of being an adult. No one said it's easy, but if you CAN'T control your emotions then why should people take you seriously?

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musicpsych.livejournal.com

The content of a person's message may be important, even though they may be emotional while they say it. I don't like to ignore people just because they get emotional. There is a line between "being emotional" and "being nasty" that some people cross, which is what I object to.

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When I hear an argument being made from emotion I can't help but distrust it. Emotion makes people less open to anything that doesn't fit with their POV and more likely to take any criticism of their ideas personally or give fair weight to alternative interperatations of things.

Facts, logic and a cool head are the best tools for getting a point across.

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Discussions about racial issues are always dicey. Particularly when they involve whites, blacks, or hispanics because most of the people in these racial groups act as if their shit doesn't stink. Add in conservatism and liberalism with their tired old false dichotomies and tendency to ignore the context of each other's words and the whole discussion quickly devolves into mutual finger pointing and demogouery.

This is why it's hard to have a real conversation about this on the internet or anywhere else.

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the-rukh.livejournal.com

There's also a problem that people start saying things like "people that are x start acting like y". Adding all sorts of preconceptions that get in the way of two humans just talking to each other.

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^True statement

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As long as it's white, hetrosexual men it's okay! :) They are the oppressors of all and thus you can't be biased against them.

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Here's the what I see in these types of debates:

cons- Institutionalized racism and white privilege is dead. Why all the complaints?

libs- Every ill befalling minorities is the fault of whitey. Non-whites never do anything to manufacture their own misery.

I disagree with both ideas. White privilege isn't dead yet but at the same time, there's a lot of minorities who are detrimental to their own communities.

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I think the problem is that any bad behavior by one person is seen as an expression of the attitude of soceity rather than the actions of just one dickhead.

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