Why the ' Invisble Hand ' does not always work..

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It has been said that if Socialism ever came to the USA, there would be starvation, rioting in the streets, and the whole fabric of society would collapse. People would literally die as a result of policies.

Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?

Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.

And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.

Comments

[redemwaru08.livejournal.com]

actually i live in england and you know what?
the gov. paying for hospitals and education is one of the best things to ever happen to this country.
you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.
And we have systems in place to ensure most kids go to uni.
Socialist-like ideals work, and the un informed right refuse to admit it, in fact that idiotic right idea has wormed its way into my country to the point we elect an idiot who is like a younger version of bush.
So now we are in danger of losing it all

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.'

You would know this because?

Paramedics don't ask for health insurance. They give emergency care regardless of ability to pay.

'So now we are in danger of losing it all'

Not admitting the reality around you is not a problem caused by others. The NHS is in trouble. Deal with it.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Er, maybe the fact that s/he says this as someone who lives in the UK is a bit of a clue.
Even if not, as a resident of this country myself, I can attest to the truth of what s/he says. Oh - and my wife happens to be a nurse, BTW.

When you say that the NHS is in trouble, I would point out that the govt. has ring fenced spending on it. the right wing press over here is full of stories of how it's on the verge of collapse, I know - but as someone who has read that kinda news story for over 30 years, I don't tend to take that much notice.

They got it's 'imminent collapse' wrong before, so what's the betting it will still be around for another 30 years?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'Er, maybe the fact that s/he says this as someone who lives in the UK is a bit of a clue.'

I'm talking about the claim made that in the US paramedics don't work till they get proof if insurance.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

nobody mentioed US paramedics at all.

ok, it is implied.
but what is the position staeside?
i understand that the paramedics will stablise someone in an emergency, regardless of ability to pay -but what about a hip replacement , or other non life threatening condition?
On the NHS, there is a queue - you have to wait.
under the US system , would you get seen at all, ever?

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

On the NHS, there is a queue - you have to wait.

I still think that the queues here are due to lack of time management and bean counting, could they not get more docs in to catch up, then would everything not be run at the same speed with no queue or are they just trying to encourage "natural losses" to save the cash when hey no longer need treatment?

under the US system , would you get seen at all, ever?

To each according to their ability to pay?

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

And we have systems in place to ensure most kids go to uni.

This is a good thing???

Uni is fine so long as you're fit enough to get through the course and get a well paid job afterwards, if you notice your illness after the course starts and leave, you're in debt up to your eyeballs with bugger all but memories to show for it.

the gov. paying for hospitals and education is one of the best things to ever happen to this country.

In your opinion of course?

Me, I'd suggest that the NHS should be run as a non-profit the way Housing associations are, the problem in blighty is that there are too many bean-counters, in the states (Under the insurance system) I'm led to believe if you were sick, they'd look for every possible problem till you got better, then billed the insurance company? Whilst I'll accept that the poor and uninsured didn't get the same service, I am of the opinion everyone should. (But I'm a little biased on this one, having an ailment government thinks gonna cost to much to fix)

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

They bill insurance companies for a percentage and the rest you have to pay, how big percentage depends on how good your insurance is. Also, it is pretty common that insurance companies try to deny their responsibility and either win the claim, or put you through an extensive (and expensive) kafka-like paper haul on your way to get the right of it.

Also, if you have any form of pre existing mental illness or physical ailment, you're gonna have a bitch of a time to get affordable insurance in the US. If you have money, you can get private insurance of the pretty costly kind, which will usually cover your needs, but it costs at least a grand a month.

These last five years in the US have been interesting for me, to compare between systems. I've even seen cases where ppl have great insurance through their work, and then get long term chronic illnesses (MS in this case), where the job finds a way to get rid of them, even though they continue to be productive and do the job, and the reasons are muddled (cutbacks in this case), but very probably in part because of the medical costs. So..I dunnow, while you get good treatment when you're funded, your "funders" can withdraw the carpet from under your feet when you least expect it, and when you need it the most.

Also, something that maybe all non-US people might not be aware of, health insurance through your job can be pretty costly too, just very cheap in comparison to some other options. I've had Great West Health Insurance in the US, which is pretty good, but it darn well cost me $400 from my paycheck, and didn't in any way cover everything. It is still a decent insurance, considered better than Kaiser, which is one of the largest here.
Soon my streak of luck with this type of health insurance will end, and I'll have to see what I can afford while working as a contractor again. It's going to be tough if I get ill.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Also, if you have any form of pre existing mental illness or physical ailment, you're gonna have a bitch of a time to get affordable insurance in the US. If you have money, you can get private insurance of the pretty costly kind, which will usually cover your needs, but it costs at least a grand a month.

As I've said somewhere else in this forum, Insurance should be a saftey net for those who cannot save, instead, it does seem in al reality to be a huge money-making scam.

These last five years in the US have been interesting for me, to compare between systems. I've even seen cases where ppl have great insurance through their work, and then get long term chronic illnesses (MS in this case),

(M.E/Cfs in mine) but when I was working and able to afford private medical care, (The firm paid 75% of it) I had no bloody use of it, I was stupid (Otherwise I'd probably now spend my days in a canteen waiting for machines to break down before I needed to get my hands dirty, whilst still being paid top rate for a sparkie)

Soon my streak of luck with this type of health insurance will end, and I'll have to see what I can afford while working as a contractor again. It's going to be tough if I get ill.

Getting ill is tough enough I'm sure insurance companies play on that too, Hell, Insurance has got to be a scam, here's my reasoning:-

I had a motorcycle stolen some years back, I found it "In the usual stolen vehicle dumping grounds" after looking through a few, It'd been torched. I claimed on my insurance, their offer was about 1/3 the value of the machine so obviously I rejected that offer with a carefully worded letter suggesting "Go away, if I have no transport I cannot get to work if I can't get to work I can't afford to pay the excessive figures you con out of me for insurance and havn't yet made an accident claim" Next thing I knew I got a letter (and a phone call) offering me the full stated value of the machine. just how many people fall over backwards to collect (Though mumble about the amount) any cash offerred? It's a scam I tell you and I'll bet they employ more statistitions than ethicists.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I'm sure if anyone ever bothered to do audits on insurance companies, they would agree with you.