http://green-man-2010.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] green-man-2010.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2010-05-31 11:26 pm
Entry tags:

Why the ' Invisble Hand ' does not always work..

It has been said that if Socialism ever came to the USA, there would be starvation, rioting in the streets, and the whole fabric of society would collapse. People would literally die as a result of policies.

Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?

Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.

And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 10:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually don't care all that much if we have a lower overall life expectancy, I do care however about the precarious position we put the middle class in with our predatory health insurance system.

[identity profile] torpidai.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Please tell us more about this "precarious position", I must have missed a news article regarding the recent middle class hardships.

[identity profile] blorky.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
You need to read up on Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and how infant mortality statistics are compiled.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I care enough to vote in favor of people that want to move closer to single payer.

[identity profile] blorky.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Um, that's not how it works. You made claims about how certain kinds of medical care are not available and I indicated that you seemed undereducated about the care that is available. There's no facts that need to be backed up.

[identity profile] ygrii-blop.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
NOBODEY BETTAR NEEVAR TAEK MY MONNAY GIVIN IT TO SAHQEENA TINNAGE WEFFARE MOM DRIVIN A CALLIADAC LOL

[identity profile] redemwaru08.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
actually i live in england and you know what?
the gov. paying for hospitals and education is one of the best things to ever happen to this country.
you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.
And we have systems in place to ensure most kids go to uni.
Socialist-like ideals work, and the un informed right refuse to admit it, in fact that idiotic right idea has wormed its way into my country to the point we elect an idiot who is like a younger version of bush.
So now we are in danger of losing it all

[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 11:46 pm (UTC)(link)
All I know is, if I am going to get prostate cancer, I want it to be in the USA, not the UK. In fact, if anyone I love is touched by cancer I hope they are treated by the harsh realities of the US Health Care system... they have a better chance, on average, of surviving.

[identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
'Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.'

Fine, we'll send you all our Mexicans.

[identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
'you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.'

You would know this because?

Paramedics don't ask for health insurance. They give emergency care regardless of ability to pay.

'So now we are in danger of losing it all'

Not admitting the reality around you is not a problem caused by others. The NHS is in trouble. Deal with it.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:20 am (UTC)(link)
You only love white people with money I'm guessing?

[identity profile] blorky.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:21 am (UTC)(link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#Comparing_infant_mortality_rates
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm

So your proof that there is no national health care program is that Obama has brought more people into the national health care programs than were in existing national health care programs previously?

You also seemed unaware of VA programs.

[identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
'Er, maybe the fact that s/he says this as someone who lives in the UK is a bit of a clue.'

I'm talking about the claim made that in the US paramedics don't work till they get proof if insurance.

[identity profile] blorky.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:31 am (UTC)(link)
Is it possible that by "National Health programme", you meant "universal coverage"? If so, you should have described that.

[identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
'Are you saying that you could care for your own if only these mexicans would stop coming over your border, or what?'

Nope.

'what have these mexicans got to do with the fact that your figures are worse than ours? '

Mexicans and immigrants from Central America are over represented in the number of critical stats.

'You think that refugees don't turn up in the Uk or other european countries or something ?'

Ours are worse than yours statistically speaking.

[identity profile] blorky.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, point taken. The sloppiness of the post just rubbed me the wrong way. there's a case to be made for more comprehensive government-backed coverage, but the OP didn't make it.

[identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Unsurprising, since we've been slowly creeping closer and closer to socialism.

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

I noticed that you went along with this line of thought without noting that there is no consistent international measurement of what constitutes a live birth. The reason the US ranks so highly is because we pretty much call anything living a live birth. Not so in many Euro countries.

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

This is funny because the most socialized medicine we have here is our Veteran's services.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?


Well, that's because the pill requires a prescription, for one - a rule put in place by government to restrict the market.

For another, the pill may be prescribed for reasons outside of birth control, but it's still primarily used for birth control.

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.


good for her. Ignorant, IMO, but good for her.

I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Why haven't they yet?

[identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
Here you go: Cancer survival rates by country (http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596).

Page 1 of 6