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oportet.livejournal.com) wrote in
talkpolitics2010-04-27 10:09 am
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(no subject)
I'm not a liberal, but if I was, I can't imagine what I would have against the Tea Party movement - so hopefully a liberal/democrat could help me out with this.
I understand the movement is made up mostly of conservatives, so wouldn't that either be a good, or at worst, neutral thing for you when elections come around?
Sure, the Tea Party isn't an official party with representatives, but when a big (or the big) election comes around, they'll most likely endorse someone (If they don't, that would fall under neutral). If the person/people they back are Republican, you saw it coming, and you'll pretty much have the same outcome there would have been if the TP never existed (again, neutral result). If the person/people they back aren't Republican, it wouldn't be taking many, if any, votes away from your side - nowhere near the number it would be taking away from Republicans (this would fall under good for you).
Or am I missing something?
I understand the movement is made up mostly of conservatives, so wouldn't that either be a good, or at worst, neutral thing for you when elections come around?
Sure, the Tea Party isn't an official party with representatives, but when a big (or the big) election comes around, they'll most likely endorse someone (If they don't, that would fall under neutral). If the person/people they back are Republican, you saw it coming, and you'll pretty much have the same outcome there would have been if the TP never existed (again, neutral result). If the person/people they back aren't Republican, it wouldn't be taking many, if any, votes away from your side - nowhere near the number it would be taking away from Republicans (this would fall under good for you).
Or am I missing something?
no subject
So logically what does that leave? I've given you numerous examples of behaviors/crimes which may be associated with illegals who are breaking the law. Right now, cops may go by a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, and that's essentially what this law changes. It is asking them to enforce our already existing immigration laws.
This is what the purpose states:
Requires officials and agencies of the state and political subdivisions to fully comply with and assist in the enforcement of federal immigration laws and gives county attorneys subpoena power in certain investigations of employers. Establishes crimes involving trespassing by illegal aliens, stopping to hire or soliciting work under specified circumstances, and transporting, harboring or concealing unlawful aliens, and their respective penalties. - SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs.doc.htm)
What this means is all explained within the bill itself: SENATE BILL 1070 (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf)
no subject
You gave the law dictionary definition of that -- not the contexts that apply to reasonable suspicion of one's immigration status.
I've given you numerous examples of behaviors/crimes which may be associated with illegals who are breaking the law
No, you haven't. You've given examples of people breaking the law and getting stopped for that. Police have to examine the identity of people arrested for commiting crimes and the ones you listed are perpetrated by all sorts of people. What makes any given drug dealer in Arizona suspected of being an illegal alien?
This law is not written like seat belt laws that only apply if a cop stops you for speeding and notices your seat belt is not fastened. It is written to say that a cop may have reasonable suspicion that a person is illegal under any circumstance. You've repeatedly given examples of criminal behavior that would get a person arrested anyway, making the bill utterly unnecessary. I've provided one example of non-criminal behavior that might arose suspicion. A cop enters a restaurant and half the bus boys run out the back door -- now what other circumstances might rise to the level of reasonable suspicion?
no subject
Of course illegal immigrants aren't the only ones to commit crimes. The difference between an illegal committing the same crime, is that the state now has the authority to enforce deportation.
A cop enters a restaurant and half the bus boys run out the back door -- now what other circumstances might rise to the level of reasonable suspicion?
Okay.
Now read the whole bill-- it states exactly what kind of situations apply. Most of which already have federal provisions in place, except now there is additional authority at the state level. We're not just talking about street cops here. For example, an illegal person applying for a job. Or applying for welfare. State officials and agencies will now have a role in verifying people's status.
You do have a point though. If these provisions already exist at a federal level, what makes the bill necessary? The question is whether these existing provisions are being sufficiently enforced.
no subject
Immigration officers don't walk street beats watching people's behavior.
Now read the whole bill-- it states exactly what kind of situations apply.
Really? Then why have you been unwilling to answer the direct question?
no subject
So now, in response to those critics, lawmakers have removed “lawful contact” from the bill and replaced it with “lawful stop, detention or arrest.” In an explanatory note, lawmakers added that the change “stipulates that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state.”
“It was the intent of the legislature for ‘lawful contact’ to mean arrests and stops, but people on the left mischaracterized it,” says Kris Kobach, the law professor and former Bush Justice Department official who helped draft the law. “So that term is now defined.”
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/in-response-to-critics-arizona-tweaks-new-immigration-law-92495249.html#ixzz0mdlfFp2y
no subject
Oh, and GREAT source -- not one quote from a critic of the bill on the implications of the "fix" but lots of quotes from people saying fixing major language flaws in the law is just "tinkering" so liberals will shut up. That's some bang up reportng there.