talkpolitics | Religion and the death penalty.

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Religion and the death penalty.

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?

**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

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I'm asking you the literal meaning of the name given to the child of Joseph and Mary. There is nothing subjective about this meaning.

The meaning of names and words is always subjective. Ask what it means to a Christian, and I'll tell you our savior.

No, the name "Jesus" -- or, more correctly, "Y'hoshua" -- has a literal meaning. Look it up. It does not mean "our savior." You're not far off, though. But this would be a good place to start if you would like to develop a more coherent and accurate Christian theology.

No, the name "Jesus" -- or, more correctly, "Y'hoshua" -- has a literal meaning.

In what context?

In the context of the Aramaic language spoken in Judea at the time of the Second Temple.

Like if you were to name your kid "Sunshine" or "Tiger" today. The meanings of those names would not be subjective. They are plain words in the English language.

No one can deny that.

So I'll ask again: What is the plain meaning of the name Y'hoshua in Aramaic?

How is "Our savior" off? I was taught that the Angel said his name would be Jesus which means the Lord our savior.

Well, one reason "our savior" is off is because it leaves out the "Lord" part. Also, I don't think "our" is in there. So the better translation would be "The Lord is salvation" or "The Lord saves."

So when we talk about salvation, it is critically important that we always emphasize the fact that it is He who does the saving. All this talk about how He applies some kind of justice to us is balderdash. Justice is me burning in hell forever for my selfishness, deceit, unforgiveness, and lust. But God is merciful. He saves because He saves. He likes saving. That's His nature. He Himself is salvation. Salvation isn't something he does if He happens to get up in a good mood and doesn't feel like zapping a bunch of us sinners that day. The salvation of the totally undeserving is His very nature. It is this nature that he revealed on the cross to all Israel and all the world. He chooses us. We don't choose Him.

Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. He authors our faith. He finishes it. We only live because He died. We are crucified with Christ. Christ crucified is what we preach. We determine not to know anything among ourselves except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Ponder these things.

The salvation of the totally undeserving is His very nature.

If he saves them then they are deserving. We might not understand WHY but we're just humans. "God's justice is perfect." doesn't mean "I will know and see that it is perfect." I don't need to see the justice... that is a matter of faith. I can trust God in this because He is good.

The phrase "The salvation of the totally undeserving is His very nature." --deserving according to whom? You? Me? Forget it!

I agree with your whole response here. Except I just don't think that sentence makes any sense. Maybe we could ponder the meaning of "undeserving"

No. Grace is by definition undeserved. We don't need to "ponder the meaning of 'undeserving.'" You need to ponder some scripture.

Actually, it is interesting how you never offer any verse to back up your assertions. You just sort of make assertions.

Try this one: "There is none righteous, no, not one." Know where that's from?

Perhaps you should have a talk with your pastor. If he says anything that would even slightly suggest that the words "salvation" and "deserving" belong in the same sentence, I would like to have a conversation with him.

Will God send people to hell to "deserved" to be saved?

This is not a coherent question. Did you make some error in constructing it that you'd like to correct?

Would it be possible for God send any person to hell who "deserved" to be saved?

No one "deserves" to be saved. The sooner you stop insisting on this foolish and heretical construction, the better.

No one "deserves" to be saved.

Exactly. That's why I put it in quotes. There's isn't any judgment before God's final judgment.

Why are you using the word at all then? What purpose does it serve, except to perpetuate false doctrine?

And what does the fact that no one deserves to be saved have to do with the fact that "There's isn't any judgment before God's final judgment?"

And why do you continue to so assiduously avoid the cross and the Christ in this discussion?

Did that clear up the question? I think you answer to this question would help me to understand What you mean by people going to heaven who do not deserve it.

For the umpteenth time, no one deserves to go to heaven.

Deserve: to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to (reward, assistance, punishment, etc.) because of actions, qualities, or situation

That word does not describe the basis upon which people are saved. People are saved by a God who loves them despite their lack of merit, qualification, or claim. People's actions, qualities, and situation destine them for separation from God -- not eternal union with Him. But God, in His infinite mercy, saves them.

You may want to look up Pelagianism and Semipelagianism.

I think I understand what you are saying more...

But God, in His infinite mercy, saves them.

Some of them. But, some will still go to hell. I guess God could save everyone, it's not for me to say, but there are so many mentions in the Bible of how some people will be separated from God forever when they die. It seems pretty clear that those who are called but refuse to hear will end up in hell if at the moment that they die they have still not accepted Christ as their Savior.

The time and effort I have been allocating to this protracted exchange will be very worthwhile if, at the end of it, you are able to understand the simple truth that Jesus saves.

I would suggest not worrying for a while about why some people may refuse the salvation that God offers. First, understand His salvation. Then later, we can deal with your odd notions about death and hell.

Hell is a key element in what brought me to religion. Religion seems like a bunch of empty feel-good nonsense until I found out about hell. All of us have many sins but at time one or more may dominate. For me it has been both pride and wrath... though mostly wrath. It is only through trust in Jesus that I have even begun to let go of the very destructive anger that I have often felt.

Because of this very personal step I probably talk about hell way more than most people. But really it has fallen out of modern discourse on Christianity-- too much I think. If you have been deeply wounded, you wonder if there is fairness in the world, if there is justice. This would consume you more than any concerns about your own salvation.

But, to me, to know God is to know that making the world balanced and fair is not my responsibility. God will take care of it. Those who have wronged me might not be punished, they may be saved. But I don't have to concern myself with their fates except that I know God, who loves us all, will find a way to make it right. Maybe it is the mercy of God that will do that or maybe it is the fires of hell.

I can set my vengeance aside becuase Jesus has died for all our sins. Even those of the people who hurt me. And even the sin implicit in feelings of anger, rage and the desire to make these people suffer the way that I have that really consume me from time to time.

That's how I see it at this stage in my spiritual development.

Well, I'm certainly sorry you've been hurt. And it is good to recognize that Jesus can redeem even the people who have hurt you. It is particularly excellent to allow Him to do that work in you which He desires to do regarding your wrath, resentment, and unforgiveness.

But it would also be good at some point to base one's theology upon scripture and the orthodox consensus of the Church -- rather than on psychological expediency and folk notions of justice, hell, and salvation.

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Religion and the death penalty.

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