http://luzribeiro.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2013-12-08 04:43 pm

Pissing on holy Mammon? How DARE he!

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/02/rush-limbaugh-vs-the-pope/

"But Limbaugh, whose program is estimated to reach 15 million listeners, called the Pope's comments "sad" and "unbelievable." "It's sad because this pope makes it very clear he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to capitalism and socialism and so forth.""

Oh how worked up the Pope has made some guys! Suddenly the pontiff stops being so infallible, eh? He just doesn't understand what Jesus is whispering in his ear, and he needs someone to explain it to him. Someone who knows more about capitalism and socialism "and so forth".

Someone like a Fox "news" commentator, perhaps?

"I go to church to save my soul," said Fox News' Stuart Varney, who is an Episcopalian. "It's got nothing to do with my vote. Pope Francis has linked the two. He has offered direct criticism of a specific political system. He has characterized negatively that system. I think he wants to influence my politics."

So... capitalism is a political system, now? When did that happen, pray tell? (pun unintended) When did capitalism stop being an economic and social system using markets to distribute goods and services, and suddenly become a political system? I thought capitalism was a tool? Does this, highly competent and infinitely infallible pundit, by any chance, happen to be mixing up capitalism with democracy? As if speaking with a British accent would magically make him look smarter, eh? But what do I know. I'm not on Fox "news", therefore I don't know shit about these things "and so forth".

See, the very notion of capitalism being an imperfect tool and this possibly warranting criticism thereof, must be such a scary prospect to a certain segment of society. The very notion that without regulation, capitalist markets tend to fail to account for all costs ("externalities", as the PC term goes, like pollution for example), or to meet the needs and interests of society in an adequate way (like preventing child labor) - that's such a blasphemy to the worshipers of King Dollar. Anathema!

In a way, right-wing conservatives like the two guys cited above have raised Capitalism (capital C) to a pedestal, and it sits even higher than their precious Jesus, whose name they so eagerly and shamelessly use as a war-flag at any given opportunity. They've turned pure, hardcore, unbridled capitalism into an ideal, not a tool. An end by itself, rather than a means to an end.

Which is exactly why they'd now cringe almost like a Pavlov-dog reflex, and hysterically cry a river of tears with a face reddened like a tomato, even at the remotest hint of criticism of their actual god. Somehow, reminding people that capitalism is just a tool, a relatively efficient and useful tool for allocating goods and services to a maximum number of people, but still a tool with its own flaws that need addressing - is now viewed among those circles as if it were some kind of Marxist crazy-talk. Well, I say stay classy, right-wingers. Kneeling before Mammon - you're doing it well.

Really, why would it matter that the Pope criticizing capitalism in its current form =/= advocating forcing people to give up their property and redistribute it to everyone else (i.e. Marxism)? All that matters is that Rush and his listeners and supporters are so, so utterly SHOCKED to see the dogma of their true religion, Capitalism, being challenged. And they can now share their shock with each other, and raise their trembling voices of righteous indignation into a choir of weeping and wailing, tears in the eyes and face reddened like a tomato. And that'd help them feel more accomplished, validated, more significant than they are, removing all insecurity, silencing all complexes. All they need to do is shut their ears, wave their hands, and keep repeating the mantras that their selected preacher has deigned upon them.


I bet if Rush & Co. ever met Jesus in person without suspecting of his identity, they'd label him a Marxist outright, and drown him in rivers of spittle after exchanging just a couple of sentences with the guy. All he need say is, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God"; and: "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven".

But yeah, I get it, he's just a "comedian", right? He likes to emphasize on his points by using comedic effect? They all do that, right? Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity... That's always been my fave disclaimer. And also this one: "See, he's just saying whatever would help him gain more audience, and ultimately, sell his product to the public better". So the really sad thing here is not that he's a hypocrite, twisting and using the Gospel to his personal benefit, and to push an agenda that runs directly counter to anything said Gospel preaches - no, it's the fact that he has "an estimated 15 million listeners", who follow every word he says, then regurgitate it in society, and ultimately, pick a considerably significant portion of the leaders of that society, to then go and craft policies that would eventually affect everyone.

Let's stop pretending that these guys are not calling the shots within a considerably significant segment of society, shall we?

[identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 02:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I may be a big old Heeb but I've also taught at Catholic affiliates schools both at the high school and university level, so I do observe these things with interest.

Some liberals may be overly gleeful that Pope Francis is making a change in focus and rhetoric without noting that he has done not one thing to DOCTRINE. He will not move to let priests marry. Homosexual unions are still sinful. Abortion and birth control positions for the Church will not change. He is still quite conservative.

But to listen to Limbaugh and his ilk, you have to realize they don't get it either and in a frankly worse way. Pope Francis is, very refreshingly, pushing the Church to live up to its Doctrine in all areas....which means changing the constant public focus on divisive social issues and leading by example. The Church is SUPPOSED to exhaust the down trodden and to speak passionately on their behalf. It is supposed to affirm the right to life not just by opposing abortion, but by opposing war and affirming the need for the poor to EAT.

This Pope isn't a liberal or a socialist. He's not a hypocrite. I like him.

[identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Meanwhile, here's what another Catholic recently said:

"Aid is just a stopgap. Commerce [and] entrepreneurial capitalism take more people out of poverty than aid. We need Africa to become an economic powerhouse"

Guess who it was? Bono, of all peeps.

That corporate mouthpiece, eh? ;)

[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure what he was on at the time that pic was being shot, but it does look kinda scary.

[identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it was something he picked up in the Dominican Republic.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
He was mocking Michael J. Fox's Parkinson's, declaring Mr. Fox was "faking" the effects of the disease in a political ad that supporting candidates that were pro stem cell research. Disgusting.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
He's right though.

[identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 03:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Limbaugh is a sad caricature of a human being.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
It's interesting seeing the reactions to Pope Francis. Some on the right are trying to make this the case, the Pope is being misunderstood, and his message is suffering at the hands of poor English translations. But that seems to ignore the last 175 years of Catholic teaching on social justice, poverty, "the idolatry of the marketplace," American consumerism, unions, and fundamental human dignity and rights of workers. This odd notion by conservatives the pope is suffering at the hands of bad translation that the American Catholic Conference of Bishops (which is far more conservative now than it was say in the 1960s - early 1980s), who all speak perfectly fine English, condemned Paul Ryan's budget plan as 'unmoral.' And when Ryan was boasting that his political views were based on the New Testament, and his personal faith as a Roman Catholic, sixty American Catholic theologians issued a press report, and the letter they sent to him (and their English is pretty good too), was a serious misrepresentation of the Catholic faith.

Then you have the case of liberal leaning non Catholics, or atheists, or non-denominational tapping their feet thinking that unless Pope Francis changes specific church doctrines this exact minute*, they're pretty unimpressed and "Meh." As a world leader, the Pope is saying and doing things that are pretty unparalleled by any current political leaders in the West (e.g. this statement the Pope made last week: “How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?”). Even the President doesn't make that many strong statements about making it a matter of morality; the President will stop far short of that and say it's just not American). Meanwhile you have notable public conservative Catholics who are pushing back (notably Bill O'Really, who offered the suggestion some people are poor because well "aren't they drug addicts?").

But I think Pope Francis' speeches and writings, and most of all, his personal examples will have an impact; and he will create a climate that will hopefully lead to more changes. I use the Gorbachev analogy. When he came to power, there were a lot of skeptics about HIS changes and proposals. It finally took Maggie Thacher calling President Reagan to convince him that he was "someone we could do business with." So in what, six years we went from expecting WWIII to almost unilateral disarmament, with the USSR and USA nearly giving up all their nuclear weapons (but short of that, the two countries negotiated significant reductions on both sides with radical proposals for Europe, etc etc.) That's the power of an individual, at the right place, at the right time.


-------------------------------------------------
* (The pope is revisiting priestly celibacy, which really is a not a "dogma" but instead a church practise that can be rescinded at anytime), and would only affect secular priests, not monastic orders.
Edited 2013-12-08 16:10 (UTC)

[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 04:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Meanwhile, in Rome...

Rome ancient frescoes reignite debate over women priests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25021623)

The reopening of a labyrinth of catacombs in Rome has reignited a debate over women priests in early Christianity...

Women's groups say frescoes on the walls at the Catacombs of Priscilla are evidence that women occupied the role of priests in ancient times...

...But the Vatican has dismissed them as pure "fable, a legend".

The Vatican has restricted the priesthood for men and teaches that women cannot become priests because Jesus willingly chose only men as his apostles...



Except he didn't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_disciples_of_Jesus). That was a tale that the early patriarchs crafted to justify restricting women's access to priesthood, and appropriate all power. An all accounts contradicting that dogma were tossed out of the mainstream, and declared heretic eventually.
Edited 2013-12-08 16:25 (UTC)

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 04:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Junia is specifically mentioned by name as a female apostle in the New Testament. Others are implied.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 04:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, Rush flipped a bit on incarceration for drug arrests, after his own personal experiences (and the ACLU represented him in a case some years ago). But its sad it took his own personal experiences to have any empathy on the issue.

[identity profile] nairiporter.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Stuart Varney: "I go to church to save my soul".
Jon Stewart: "Then why aren't you there right now?"

Ha! :-)

Like a Herald Sings, they do

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Fox Limbaugh is a totes serious player on the world political scene and should be taken both serious, and feared as PopeSlayer. He should never be taken lightly and is a threat to democracy and liberals.





..if only these dissenting voices could be silenced...

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah...that "Freedom Thing"

sucks how it cuts both ways :)

(frozen comment)

[identity profile] 404.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 06:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It's sad that if you dissent from the majority of this community, you are given the labels of white-knight, concern troll, or any of a grab bag of epithets to try to silence those who may disagree.

(frozen comment)

[identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
You're literally doing the same thing right now.

(frozen comment)

[identity profile] 404.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Nope

[identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
unless Pope Francis changes specific church doctrines this exact minute*, they're pretty unimpressed

Its not that I don't like his talk. Its that the Church's walk has been deadly harmful. The Church's present position concerning homosexuality is itself "disordered" in the sense that it is "ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil". (I chose my words from their own.)

I don't accept, apologize for, or in any way defend such a position. When Francis reverses this, or even plants seeds to do so, I'll be pleased, but twice shy.



(frozen comment)

[identity profile] 404.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I''m sure your clique will sweep in and defend you.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I do think some of his statements are seeds, especially on homosexuality. We disagree I suppose.

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