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talkpolitics2011-09-18 03:27 pm
paft.livejournal.com) wrote in talkpolitics2011-09-18 03:27 pm
Entry tags:
"Do You, as a Candidate for President, Really Believe..."
Susan Grigsby, who lost her brother, Steve, to cancer: What really horrified me about the debate was not the poorly phrased question, it wasn’t Dr. Paul’s answer, and it wasn’t even the scream after Wolf Blitzer asked, ‘Would you let him die,’ and somebody in the audience yelled ‘Yeah!’ That wasn’t as horrifying as was the silence from the stage, from these men and women who are running for office, not a word. Nothing.
This is the reality of the right wing libertarian attitude toward the sick. It is vile. It is inhumane. It is unworthy of Americans.
The question posed by Susan Grigsby needs to be asked of every Republican candidate. "Do you, as a candidate for President, really believe that if an American cannot get, or does not get insurance, that they should be treated the way Steve was?"
When they don’t answer it it needs to be asked again. And again. And again. They cannot be allowed to evade it. They cannot be allowed to look the other way.
Republicans are already trying. Here’s Mitch McConnell when confronted with that clip from the debate and asked if it troubled him:
(Brief chuckle) Look, we have a lot of people running for president, there are going to be a lot of debates, a lot of things said, a lot of audience reactions, I don’t have a particular reaction to what’s going on in the Republican campaign for president right now.
The silence that horrified Susan Grigsby continues.
Prominent Republicans are afraid of coming out in favor of saving the lives of the sick and uninsured.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/07/tea-party-zombies-must-die-video-game_n_951896.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/276418/tea-party-zombies-must-die-daniel-foster#
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/republicans/8749212/Tea-Party-Zombies-Must-Die-video-game-riles-Republicans.html
http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/07/tea-party-zombies-must-die-is-a-really-good-video-game/
It was also all over Twitter. Considering how many politicians not only check their accounts but use them personally (without sending obscene photos *cough*Anthony Weiner*cough*), I'm surprised I didn't hear a peep from Dem pols over how violent and distasteful it was when they had such righteous indignation over the perceived implications of crosshairs on a map. Wait...no, I'm not surprised by their silence at all.
Here is a more detailed description by Grigsby of what happened to her brother. -- Posting something from Daily Kos? Daily Kos is to Conservatives what BigGovernment.com or Drudge Report is to Liberals. Oh well. I'll tackle this one piece at a time.
He was too young for Medicare and too male for Medicaid. -- WTF‽
This nation does not recognize the years he spent working for others and making this economy grow, it only focused on the years he worked for himself, creating instruments of rare beauty. -- He made guitars. What did she want, a ticker-tape parade? My grandmother worked in hospitals and nursing homes the majority of her life, helping the sick and elderly. None of us had the entitled attitude that "this nation" owed her for what she did in her life, not even her.
As I said, I feel badly for Susan. The hospital should have allowed some sort-of payment plan or steered her in the direction of a charity or treatment center that could have worked with her brother's financial situation instead of demanding $20,000 they knew he didn't have.
But this is what really gets under my skin -- when he was warehoused at the county nursing home, who paid for it? And when Susan mentioned who raised the $2,000 for his surgery, it was her brother's co-workers...what did SHE do? I'm just curious because those are things that went unmentioned.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
No. Just enough basic healthcare to give him a fighting chance against cancer.
Do you consider that the equivalent of a "ticker tape parade?" Or is it perhaps your premise that a mere guitar maker doesn't warrant the healthcare that might very well have saved his life?
mvl: The hospital should have allowed some sort-of payment plan or steered her in the direction of a charity or treatment center that could have worked with her brother's financial situation instead of demanding $20,000 they knew he didn't have.
But you see, they didn't.
mvl But this is what really gets under my skin -- when he was warehoused at the county nursing home, who paid for it?
Why would that get under your skin? Do you begrudge him even that much care?
mvl: And when Susan mentioned who raised the $2,000 for his surgery, it was her brother's co-workers...what did SHE do?
I imagine she kicked in what she could, in addition to sitting with him and holding his hand when he died.
What exactly are you implying here? Many people are not big on citing their own contributions in such cases, especially when they are relatives. The assumption generally is that if they were in a position to help in some way, they did.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
Why would that get under your skin? Do you begrudge him even that much care? -- I don't begrudge him anything. He's no longer on this Earth. If he were, I'd want him to get the best health care possible, and I would have wanted the same for my grandmother.
What exactly are you implying here? -- I'm implying that his sister feels guilt-ridden that she couldn't do more for her brother and instead of facing any reality that his cancer may have been too far gone, she's projecting and blaming everyone else for something that couldn't be helped.
My grandmother was diagnosed in February 2006. The doctors said that even with chemotherapy, she may only have 3-12 months left. The chemotherapy left her sicker than she was before she was even diagnosed. That's what killed her. It spread through her body, just as it did with Steve. If she just lost her brother last year, she's still in the grieving stages. I remember being where she is. Unfortunately, her grief, anger, and frustration are being used to champion an empty fight against a non-issue, and I'm not talking about health care. I'm talking about "Applause-gate", where people want to blame the GOP candidates for some idiotic words from a few morons in an audience they had no control over. Quite frankly, the whole issue of who said what at the debate is stupid, and it's Democrats grasping at straws for anything they can use to make sure their golden boy stays in office.
Susan's story is just another of the many horror stories of cancer, and if Obamacare is as good as everyone says it is, then the issue will be addressed. I understand that's too little, too late for her, but what more do you want? Can't bring someone back from the dead.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
mvl What I'm saying is that she's acting like the world owed him because he worked for a living. What makes him any better than a guy working behind the counter at 7-11?
He was her brother and plainly special to her, but I see no sign that she considers her brother any more deserving of basic healthcare than the guy "working the counter at 7-11." It looks to me like you're straining to find something to carp about.
Paft Why would that get under your skin? Do you begrudge him even that much care? --
mvl: I don't begrudge him anything. He's no longer on this Earth. If he were, I'd want him to get the best health care possible, and I would have wanted the same for my grandmother.
So why does the fact that he was getting care at a county nursing home, presumably paid for by taxes "get under [your] skin?"
Paft: What exactly are you implying here?
mvl: I'm implying that his sister feels guilt-ridden that she couldn't do more for her brother and instead of facing any reality that his cancer may have been too far gone, she's projecting and blaming everyone else for something that couldn't be helped.
Prompt diagnosis and treatment of cancer can most certainly make a difference in the outcome. Her brother's diagnosis and treatment were significantly delayed because he had no health insurance. Ascribing her very natural and understandable anger over this delay to personal guilt is a hell of a stretch.
mvl: My grandmother was diagnosed in February 2006...
Was she unable to get in to a doctor to check on her symptoms because she had no health insurance? Was her diagnosis and treatment significantly delayed because of this?
I'm willing to bet, by the way, that most of us past a certain age have had relatives or friends who died of cancer. Nobody is claiming that a reformed healthcare system will eliminate such deaths. We simply ask that victims beg given a fighting chance through prompt diagnosis and treatment.
mvl: Susan's story is just another of the many horror stories of cancer, and if Obamacare is as good as everyone says it is...
"Everyone?" Including tea partiers? including the people cheering on the idea of allowing the uninsured to die?
MVL: I understand that's too little, too late for her, but what more do you want?
A better healthcare system that includes a public option. I'd also like some sign of common decency from the Republican "base," the people who have gone on record cheering deaths and mocking Parkinson's victims, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
Ascribing her very natural and understandable anger over this delay to personal guilt is a hell of a stretch. -- In your opinion.
Was she unable to get in to a doctor to check on her symptoms because she had no health insurance? Was her diagnosis and treatment significantly delayed because of this? -- She had insurance but still had to pay some out-of-pocket expenses. I already said that.
"Everyone?" Including tea partiers? including the people cheering on the idea of allowing the uninsured to die? -- I don't know, PAFT. Why don't you ask people who are part of the Tea Party. If you'd like me to be more specific in my description, I could always amend that to "If Obamacare is as good as Obama's lemmings say it is." Better?
P.S. -- A point already made several times in this room. The opinions of a few people do not represent an entire group/party. If that were the case, then this is the representation of every Democrat in the United States.
A better healthcare system that includes a public option. I'd also like some sign of common decency from the Republican "base," the people who have gone on record cheering deaths and mocking Parkinson's victims, but that's probably hoping for too much. -- If a public option were ever enacted, Steve would have been on the same path he was when he died -- waiting for surgery. Female breast cancer patients in countries with a fully government run health care system are denied some medications. As for common decency, no one's gonna kiss your rump or anyone else's because of comments made by a few idiots. That points already been made, so I wouldn't be holding out for any apologies anytime soon. And here's a hint -- you get respect and decency when you give respect and decency. You should know that by now...
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
I'll point this out one more time.
Her brother's cancer might very well have been more treatable if he'd been able to get to a doctor who diagnosed it in time. That's really what she's mad about.
And if the conditions in that nursing home were such that it was as she describes, I think she has reason to complain.
mvl: So this isn't a situation of anyone "letting" her brother die except the douches in charge of his surgery.
Except for a lil' ol thing like that?
How about a healthcare system that allowed it to happen and politicians like Ron Paul who seem determined to continue to let it happen?
mvl: Ascribing her very natural and understandable anger over this delay to personal guilt is a hell of a stretch. -- In your opinion.
I suspect that would be the opinion of most rational people with a normal allotment of empathy.
paft: Was she unable to get in to a doctor to check on her symptoms because she had no health insurance? Was her diagnosis and treatment significantly delayed because of this? --
mvl: She had insurance but still had to pay some out-of-pocket expenses. I already said that.
In other words, her situation was not comparable to his.
Paft: "Everyone?" Including tea partiers? including the people cheering on the idea of allowing the uninsured to die? --
mvl: I don't know, PAFT. Why don't you ask people who are part of the Tea Party.
I don't need to. They're quite outspoken. Haven't you noticed?
mvl; A point already made several times in this room. The opinions of a few people do not represent an entire group/party....
I keep being told that those yahoos yelling "yeah" only represent a "few" people on the right, (when I'm not being told by another right winger here that they represent the majority.) I hear this at the same time I am told by other right wingers that "yeah" is the appropriate answer.
mvl; If a public option were ever enacted, Steve would have been on the same path he was when he died -- waiting for surgery.
That's not what I've heard from people who actually live in countries that offer a public option. At the very least, he would have had access to a physician who would have diagnosed his cancer before it metastasized to his spine.
mvl Female breast cancer patients in countries with a fully government run health care system are denied some medications.
Do they have access to regular checkups that enable a prompt diagnosis and treatment?
That alone would put them in a better position than America's uninsured.
mvl: As for common decency, no one's gonna kiss your rump or anyone else's because of comments made by a few idiots.
I'm not asking anyone to kiss my rump.
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
And I see you failed to address my point that if the opinions of a few represented the many (as you keep arguing they do), the Left would be nothing but people issuing death threats to the Bush family.
Stay classy, PAFT!
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
I have not heard choruses of left-wing crazies yelling "kill the bankers" at important Democratic candidate debates. Have you?
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?
Re: Oh brother, is there no end to the disingeuousness of political animals?