ext_209521 ([identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2011-07-18 05:19 pm

Sociopaths and society

I strongly recommend that everyone read a fascinating book called The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, Ph.D.

What is a sociopath?
A sociopath (aka psychopath) is a person unable to feel emotions for other people the way most of us do. They can hurt us in many ways and sleep like a baby that night. They have no sense of guilt or remorse and are often a destructive force in our lives, both personally and sociologically. Studies indicate as many as 1 in 25 of us may have this lack of conscience (EDIT: it's only fair to remark several members of this community dispute that number and have provided their own links in the comments section that show this may be an inflated figure).

Many think of serial killers when they think of sociopathy, but those actually make up a small percentage of their numbers. One may think prisons would be filled with them but according to the book a study indicates roughly 20 percent of the prison population has this deficiency. They can be criminals and terrorists but they can also be a CEO or a politician. The scariest trait other than their lack of empathy is their ability to hide among us and remain difficult to detect.

Not all are violent, in fact many are smart enough to keep a low profile by avoiding violent behavior. In the book Dr. Stout gives several examples based on real cases, from a man who takes advantage of his wife, unemployed and sitting at the pool all day, to an administrator in a psychiatric facility who gets her pleasure from undermining the work of her colleagues (by sabotaging the progress of their patients), to a mild-mannered man that starts fires in post offices just to watch the frantic efforts to put out the blaze.

They are usually charming, spontaneous, and complex. And almost without exception they wreak havoc in the lives of those around them, usually because we refuse to believe that anyone can do such hurtful things to others just for the sake of hurting. They can be especially adept at getting others to go along with their schemes. They can be a terrorist, or a con man, or a teacher. They can be your next door neighbor, they can be in your family.

What does this have to do with politics?
Now here's where the book can really get interesting. As mentioned before, roughly 4% of the world's population is a sociopath, but in some countries the population can be much lower. In countries like Japan and China where there's greater social pressure to work cooperatively, the estimated rates vary between about .03% to .14%, far less than their counterparts in the Western world.

According to the book the United States has the fastest growing rate of antisocial behavior in the world (although no specific numbers are given). Our emphasis on individualism tends to both encourage sociopathy and makes it easier for them to hide among us. We tend to admire many of their traits, their risk-taking and daring natures.

Is this to say that individualism in itself is somehow wrong? Absolutely not, but it certainly demonstrates the need reevaluate the behaviors it may encourage.

Sociopaths can be a serious threat to our way of life. At times in history when many have risen in power we've seen the catastrophic results. So I think we need to work on better ways of detecting them among us. But let's say we find a fool-proof means of finding those among us without conscience, what is to be done with them?

There is no known "cure" for sociopathy, their brains simply work differently from the rest of us. Do we imprison them? Do we find some other way of sequestering them from society? Do we try to work with them, find a use for their lack on conscience? In the comments section I'll go more into detail about this, as well as something else mentioned in the book that deserves its own discussion.

[identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
You may also be interested in The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson that just came out.

[identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I always thought of sociopathy as being a condition someone is born with but the difference in rates between Japan and America would seem to contradict this belief. Does the book say anything about that, is it the author's position that sociopathy is a learned behavior?

btw, this stuff fascinates me so I'm pleased we're getting to discuss it here.

[identity profile] bex.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:49 pm (UTC)(link)
A sociopath (aka psychopath)...

Are you using clinical terms or pop-psych terms? I was under the impression that, while academics debate endlessly over definitions, there is a general recognition that sociopath and psychopath are not interchangeable terms. Psychopathy usually refers to some innate trait, whereas sociopathy is thought to be "made" through environmental factors. This is a layman's distinction, of course, but sociopath != psychopath.

I don't really like these kinds of books, tbh. To appeal to a popular audience, I think they dumb down these extremely complex psychological and sociological issues. If I wanted to know about psychopathology and sociopathology, I would sooner review recently published, peer-reviewed journal articles by multiple authors than read a book by a single author that had to pass no peer-review process. I've seen a lot of stupid books out there. In academia, peer-reviewed (or refereed, depending on your field) journal articles are the typical currency.

[identity profile] bex.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know if the author uses psychopath/sociopath interchangeably, but the overly-simplified definition was, as far as I knew, that psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

[identity profile] bex.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Hah, that review is pretty scathing. Awesome.

[identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting. Do you happen to know what factors would go into the making of a sociopath? I can see in that case the individualism often encouraged in America being one, but if you happen to know of others and don't mind taking the time to respond, I'd love to hear more.

[identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll be honest:

I have not read the research or the critiques of it.

However, I am immediately wary of a lot of pop-psychology press claims, regardless of the credentials involved.

These kinds of diagnoses are usually done on ratings scales. A respondent answers questions and trained rater scales the replies. Reach a certain point and you are over the threshhold.

This makes sense because a lot of psychological diagnoses are for behavior that exists on a spectrum -- take autism, for example. We all know people who tilt towards the autistic end of the behavioral spectrum. If you work in engineering, odds are that you know a LOT of people like that. But it isn't until the behavior reaches a level where it can interfere with normal functioning that we will consider a diagnosis of even high functioning autism. Part of why we have a much higher diagnosis rate of autism today is that a lot of people who were previous just thought of as extremely weird are actually getting needed assistance to help them in school and work -- venues that used to leave them to struggle and often fail.

But this diagnosis? At this rate? I have trouble intutively accepting that rating scales can find it at this level given the defition you used of someone UNABLE to feel emotions normally? That's too damn high. I know plenty of people who have some empathy problems -- even people with terrible judgement about socially acceptable behavior. But they exist on a continuum of behavior where INABILITY to feel these emotions is the extreme end. For this contention to be right, the distribution of this behavior in the general population would have to have a big skew at the far end of the behavioral continuum.

It reads as a big oversell of the diagnosis when the reality is probably much greater variance.

Be nice to sociopaths.

[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
What is a "conscience"? Do we mean culturally inculcated aversions? Do we mean moral rationalization? Do we mean cognitive habits? Our "conscience", as far as I can tell, is equal parts guilt and rationalization. It is our conscience that tells us it is ok to yell at the coffee server, because that coffee server is slow and incompetent, therefore I am justified in treating that person badly.

We don't need to worry about sociopaths. I'm probably a sociopath, and so do not engage in daily piss fests and turf battles like all you little people. Mostly I just look down on everyone as silly billys.

What you need to worry the most about is a man with a conscience and reason to kill. The sociopath isn't quite so committed.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Ronson was interviewed on Colbert, was pretty fascinating.

Re: Be nice to sociopaths.

[identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Welcome back :)

[identity profile] bex.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
It's not really my area, sorry. I've seen humorous comparisons drawn between very younger children and psycho/sociopaths (http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-study-reveals-most-children-unrepentant-sociop,2870/) (Onion article, please do not take seriously, even if it does contain a grain of truth!) - perhaps something is missing in early childhood and these future psycho/sociopaths just aren't given the resources to progress beyond infancy and be appropriately socialized. If I had to guess, I would say improper/inadequate attachment early on, abuse/neglect, unstable home life, the usual. Of course, I'm sure there are kids whose parents do everything right but they're still a bit off, so who knows.

Terri Moffitt is a well-known criminologist who studies sociobiological stuff (sorta - lots of hormone level things), and she's co-authored an article that suggests that there's a genetic link for psychopathy (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2004.00393.x/full), but they use antisocial behavior and callous-unemotional traits as a measure for psychopathy, which... I don't know, I struggle with. "Antisocial behavior" is a pretty fucking vague term and has been use to describe everything from internalizing behavior to violent outbursts. It's kinda a catchall for "not right."

Other than that, I see a pretty slim smattering of articles about risk factors for socio/psychopathology (sorry to keep using that garbled term, but I'm really not sure what people are calling it these days), and nothing very recent. I found one from 1989 but I can't access the PDF, and I don't like citing articles based on the info in the abstract, because I want to see the methodology.

[identity profile] bex.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
*flattered* Sure! My personal journal is mostly extensive rambling about dog training and criminal justice education, so please feel free to un-add me when you're sick of my blather! :D

Re: Be nice to sociopaths.

[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:08 pm (UTC)(link)
The truth, I'm afraid, is that if everyone were a megalomaniac sociopath like me, no one would bother fighting or killing anyone, because I no more care about going out of my way, wasting my time, going and exerting my energy to influence some idiot child imbecile, of whom I respect little more than a rodent. In fact, I like rodents, and I care for them deeply. But I don't go wasting time and energy having disputes with rodents, and I don't particularly care if the rodent thinks highly of me. I'd rather just feed the damn rat and be on my way.

[identity profile] awdrey-gore.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a fabulous, though at times disjointed book. I read it in two sittings.

Re: Be nice to sociopaths.

[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I DO NOT NEED YOUR WELCOME! I AM HERE FOR MY OWN REASONS! I AM MIGHTY!

[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com 2011-07-18 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
A disturbance in the force?

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