Even more Wankery that we find acceptable...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

While I generally disagree with his politics I think Mr. Savage raises an excellent point.

Now consider this...

Bill Maher and NYT's David Carr the "Middle Places" and "Low-Sloping Foreheads".

I apologise for linking as I seem to be having trouble embedding the video.

Now I would assume that both men in the second video consider themselves to be reasonably intelligent and enlightened men. If accused of being racist or bigoted I would imagine that they would be properly offended.

Which is why I'm going to ask an uncomfortable question, why is it ok to disparage one socio-political/ethnic class as stupid, dangerous, useless, ect... but not another. Would his comments have been more or less offensive had he been talking about "Fags" "Twats" "Spics" "Wops" "Chinks" or *Gasp* "N*ggers"?

Discuss.

Comments

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

History.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

In the abstract this is true, context does matter but that raises it's own questions.

For instance how much do you let slide before calling the books even? Will redneck jokes always be acceptable and racist jokes always off-limits?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

There is a difference in making fun of a group characterized by what they are vs a group characterized by common modes of behavior. In the latter one can always claim not to be a member of said group.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Does that mean that black black jokes that focus on watermelon, basketball, and affirmative action are ok?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

No because as a black person you cannot claim to be not-black.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

But a religious person can claim to not be religious?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'There is a difference in making fun of a group characterized by what they are vs a group characterized by common modes of behavior.'

Being white and living in a rural area is a mode of behavior?

What about being black and being in an inner city area?

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Being white and living in a rural area does not mean you are a redneck.
Being black and living in an inner city area does not mean you are a gangsta.

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

Pretty much, yeah.

As someone who grew up in Alabama, redneck is a state of mind. It's not something you're born into, like race.

It's more like a lifestyle. Southern != redneck and redneck != southern, so (I hope I'm explaining this well, in a non-wanky way) even if you're born to a family that's Real Deep South (as I was), doesn't mean you're going to be a redneck. In my experience, it was always something that some kids said they "wanted to be (redneck)", others were more "I'd rather just be proud of my southern heritage", and still others were "Get me out of here, preferably with a mid-west accent".

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

More like "Rural white = stupid and inbred" but yes.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is you can't really take it out of the abstract. Any attempt to codify this kind of thing will inevitably fall apart under the weight of it's own internal self-contradictions and exceptions. It's more about the vibe of the thing, the zeitgeist, as it were. To those who don't understand the difference between the word "nigger" and the word "cracker", I can't say much more than "pay more attention".

Like, pay attention to the reactions of others when you say things. Are people genuinely hurt? If so, try to find out why they are hurt and rather than shrugging it off as inconsequential try to empathise with the person and their situation. If it hurts a large group of people, especially if it has to do with either an unchosen commonality like race, or a group of shared painful personal and group histories like homosexuals or abuse victims, then it's probably a good idea to stay away from such things unless you want to be an arsehole. If you don't mind being an arsehole, then OK, but pay attention to how people treat arseholes and expect accordingly.

Take redneck jokes. Rednecks own redneck jokes. I rarely see anyone doing redneck jokes except rednecks. We have a similar thing with racial humour here too. Much of the world doesn't understand Australian racial humour (OK, we had that blackface thing on Hey Hey It's Saturday, that was shit, and there is a lot of racism here, don't get me wrong), especially of the type shown in something like Fat Pizza, where you have skips playing skips and lebs playing lebs and wogs playing wogs and gooks playing gooks and making all of the racist jokes around them, but they can because there's ownership of the jokes. We have another show playing here at the moment called Angry Boys (it should be on HBO there, either now or soon). There's a character in that, Gran, who makes heaps of racist jokes. Really racist, inappropriate jokes. But you laugh at her; the reaction is "Gran, you can't say that!", but you laugh, cos hey, racist jokes can be pretty fucking funny. The difference here is that it's being presented in a context where the racism isn't cool, it isn't ok, but it can still be funny; you're laughing at the racist, not the racism. It's very subtle and I will be interested to see how Americans react to it.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing is you can't really take it out of the abstract. Any attempt to codify this kind of thing will inevitably fall apart under the weight of it's own internal self-contradictions and exceptions.

And that is much of the problem.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Which is why trying to understand it rationally won't work.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Hey, there's more to it than it seems. For example, one of the reason racist jokes work differently here is that it's always been part of the Australian psyche to make fun of other people (especially the government). The conditions is, however, that you always make the most and harshest jokes about yourself. Self deprecation is an artform here that just can't be appreciated properly by those who don't grow up here. So it's about owning your differences, owning your flaws, but at the same time calling everyone else on their bullshit.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Very good point, except I'm not so sure it would work as well in the states, way too much PC.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

We have just as much PC, we're just having the conversation in a different context. Our black population has a much different experience than yours, and our non-white immigration is far more recent. Things are different. That's why it'll be interesting to see how Angry Boys goes down over there.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure it would work as well in the states

It would work. You never watch The Boondocks?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Racist jokes are about race. Redneck jokes are not.

We make fun of this don't we?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'Racist jokes are about race. Redneck jokes are not.'

So is there another race besides white that is considered a redneck?

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I think this is your confusion. "Redneck" is an American term, it's similar to "Hillbilly". There's all kinds, it usually relates to the uncultured rural people. All cultures have pejoratives for these people. Here, it is "Bogan" (which, again, if you only looked within the culture you would assume would be white only, but that's just because of the racial homogeneity of the rural population).

Every society has their "redneck", regardless of race.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

There's no reason that a redneck couldn't be black. Well except maybe the huge amount of racism and xenophobia inherent in the tradition. That probably reduces the number a bit.

[surferelf.livejournal.com]

Given that chattel slavery existed in N. America for a few hundred years, followed by a century of institutional racism being the law of the land, it is laughably premature to discuss "calling the books even" at this point. Why don't you try back in the 25th century?