http://blue_mangos.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2011-07-05 12:50 pm

Monthly Theme - The Legality and Morality of Prostitution

There is a debate among feminists of today surrounding the legalities and morality of the sex trade. Many believe it should be a legitimate profession that women can choose, out of their own free will, to engage in. Sex itself is not immoral so why should the trade of it be so? It is my belief that it should be legalized, as taking away the underground aspect of the industry will remove a great deal of the risks, dangers and coercion involved. Many countries around the world have legalized prostitution. Some, including Canada, have decriminalized the act of solicitation, while operating a bawdy house, public solicitation and living off the avails of prostitution (pimping) remain illegal. There are some, including many South American countries who have seemed to have struck the best balance, with prostitution and brothels being legal for women over 18 with pimping remaining illegal.

In my opinion, the criminalization of the act is what leads to exploitation of women and to the dangers and abuse that many face. Giving women the option of choosing it as a profession while keeping pimping illegal reduces the coercion aspect. Take away the dark alley scenarios and lack of accountability and it becomes much more safe and controlled. Legalization may also reduce the stigma surrounding prostitution. Men rape and murder prostitutes as they are seen as worthless. Once it is a legitimate job it may raise the value of these women in the eyes of society and especially police. Rapes and abuse of sex workers will be reported to the police once the threat of arrest is removed. The health risks involved in prostitution for both the woman and her clients can also be reduced through legalization. Mandatory health checks can be instituted by the government to stop the spread of HIV and STDs.

Unfortunately, not enough research has been done in these areas to support the belief that legalized prostitution will lead to these positive benefits, and the information out there is conflicting, depending on who has commissioned the study. All we can go on at this point is common sense and the word of the sex workers themselves who have been working for legislation. More attention must be paid to the matter until we find a model that provides the best protection and options for the women involved.

It is my belief that prostitution should be a viable career choice for any woman who chooses to engage in it. However, I recognize that many of those who do so are doing it out of a lack of any other choice, due to socio-economic factors and addiction. A vital part of any countries prostitution standards should be exit strategies and resources available to those who wish to no longer engage in the practice. Efforts should be focused not on punishing the prostitutes, but in determining their needs and choices and giving assistance where desired.

Removing the criminal act, and allowing women greater choices will also remove some of the moral issues many women have with prostitution. Under illegal prostitution, men are seen as dominating and exploiting women. To take away that power and put it back in the hands of women should be seen as a victory by feminist groups. As well, normalizing the sex trade should help to remove the stigma of sex workers as degenerates.

Two areas that must remain illegal and fought against are child prostitution (which should, IMO, be considered anyone under the age of 18) and sex trafficking. It is estimated that 600,000-800,000 men, women and children are trafficked across international borders every year. Globalization and advanced communication devices and the internet have made the practice much easier. Traffickers prey on the vulnerable, mostly those in undeveloped or poor countries. The victims, often teenage girls, are lured from their homes with promises of a better life, removed from their countries and kept in situations where they have no control, no security and no protection from local law enforcement. These are the areas women's groups and law enforcement should be focusing their attention and resources on stopping, these are the true victims of illegal prostitution.

Prostitution is often referred to as the oldest profession in the world. This may not be completely accurate but records exist back to 2400 B.C. where it was recorded on a Sumerian list of professions (along with, interestingly, lady doctor.) and continues through historical records right up to present time. It is safe to say it is not going away. It is time for all countries to recognize this fact and provide the safest laws possible to protect these women.

[identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 05:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Just as a side note, I think it's somewhat remarkable that large parts of society now see the cure as worse than the disease in many areas. Many prominent arguments for abortion, drug legalization, prostitution, gun rights, immigrant amnesty and the like all hinge on the idea that making the allegedly unwanted conduct illegal makes the conduct even worse than it would be were it legal, because it will occur anyway.

[identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Europe, or at least countries like Germany and the Netherlands do a far better job at acknowledging reality in making prostitution a legitimate profession. We're Pretend Puritans in North America, including Canada.

[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes of course prostitution should be illegal because when you strip the act down to it's most basic level, one person agreeing to have sex with another in return for monetary considerations there is no possible way either person is being victimized, the only argument for outlawing is based on what some priest in a fancy hat says god wants.

That said I'm not totally on board with criminalizing things like "pimping" or running a brothel. Realistically a "pimp" or brothel can offer valuable services to the prostitutes serving as business agents, marketing, and providing security. They key is to criminalize the coercion that typically occurs with the criminal realities of the pimp/brothel but I think that can be achieved without outlawing the role altogether.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
the only argument for outlawing is based on what some priest in a fancy hat says god wants

Protestants base their ethical arguments on assertions by priests in fancy hats? News to me!

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
First, we might want to look at the issue of how many parents in any world culture -- whether it's post-Enlightenment Protestantism or pre-colonial Yorubaland -- talk to their daughters about how proud they would be if they were to choose prostitution as a career path.

I mean, do you have a daughter? Have you discuss prostitution with her as a career option?

[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Officially, no the entire point of the Protestant reformation was to allow the layman to read the scripture and intrepret it for themselves and develop a personal relationship with god that lacks clerical intercession in the process

As a practical matter, yes the overwhelming majority of them derive their interpretation of the scripture as an unquestioned adoption of whatever their preacher told them to believe.

The fancy hats part of course was pure hyperbole on my part.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I doubt very much that Luther encouraged anyone to "interpret [scripture]for themselves." Nor does Lutheranism propose the elimination of the clerical role.

I'm also quite sure we can rightly distinguish between appropriate catechesis and "unquestioned adoption of whatever their preacher told them to believe."

Really, you might be better off just avoiding topics like these entirely. Your judgment seems to be a bit clouded in these matters.

[identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't talk to them about being used car salesmen as a career path either.

[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)
BAH I just noticed that somehow I posted this...

"Yes of course prostitution should be illegal"

when it should have read...

"Yes of course prostitution should be legal"

Hopefully people can tell that is what I meant from the rest of the context (it is really the only way my comment makes any sense at all) but I figured I'd post the correction anyway.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Perhaps for similar reasons.

[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I was unaware that Luther was the sum total of the Protestant reformation.

I'm also rather surprised that you seem to think that the majority of protestants, especially here in America, have actually devoted any serious thought to their faith.

[identity profile] curseangel.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)

In my opinion, the criminalization of the act is what leads to exploitation of women and to the dangers and abuse that many face. Giving women the option of choosing it as a profession while keeping pimping illegal reduces the coercion aspect. Take away the dark alley scenarios and lack of accountability and it becomes much more safe and controlled. Legalization may also reduce the stigma surrounding prostitution. Men rape and murder prostitutes as they are seen as worthless. Once it is a legitimate job it may raise the value of these women in the eyes of society and especially police. Rapes and abuse of sex workers will be reported to the police once the threat of arrest is removed. The health risks involved in prostitution for both the woman and her clients can also be reduced through legalization. Mandatory health checks can be instituted by the government to stop the spread of HIV and STDs.


I completely agree. Actually, I wrote a paper to this effect, with a strong focus on how legalization would protect the women (and men) involved in prostitution and allow them proper health care and the ability to go to the police if something happened to them.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't realize we were discussing illegality. Your original comment asked me about prostitution an sich.

It is wonderful that you would be supportive of a daughter or son who chose to work in the adult film industry. There might nonetheless be valid reasons why other parents throughout history may have chosen to keep sex work off of their list of supported choices.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Luther is probably a non-trivial example to use in refuting your assertions. But I could make the same assertion about Calvin, could I not? His Institutes are rather plainly not an attempt to encourage personal interpretation of scripture.

I'm also rather surprised that you seem to think that the majority of protestants, especially here in America, have actually devoted any serious thought to their faith.

Have I made this assertion somewhere?

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
We have not determined this at all. Where is it that you would say we have done so?

In any case, you would have to tell me, since I am not as studied in Brucensteinism as I am in theology, anthrolpology, etc. generally. If I had to take a wild guess based on our previous exchanges, however, I would surmise that your reasons would be largely pecuniary.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, the question of illegality would be entirely separate.

Again, if the inquiry is into why Protestants might not approve of prostitution generally, I would stand by my position that we would first consider why this has so often been the case across multiple cultures and religions. Protestants, after all, are people first -- despite the Othering that seems to be so much in vogue today.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
No, it doesn't end there. But it's a good place to start.

And again, we might rightly differentiate between a Protestant (or anyone else) affirming the appropriateness of having the state legally sanction same-sex marriage -- and a Protestant (or anyone else) affirming that homosexuality is the highest expression of divine good.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Cardinal Ratzinger, is that you?

Much love,
Hans Kung.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Are you now saying that pride in a child's career should not be related to determining the ethical nature of said career?

I'm saying that it would be somewhat speculative on my part to make an assertion about the ethical construct that you personally utilize to determine your preferences.

That is a rather different project than an informed discussion about why parents generally and historically may have preferred that their daughters not become prostitutes.

[identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:16 pm (UTC)(link)
"Have I made this assertion somewhere?"

Well you have either made this assertion or shown you like to argue irrelivancies for no point.

This entire discussion started off with my making the following comment...

"the only argument for outlawing is based on what some priest in a fancy hat says god wants."


which you objected to with this...

"Protestants base their ethical arguments on assertions by priests in fancy hats?"


So what does all of this mean?

Well my comment basically boils down to a claim that the only argument for banning prostitution where no other factors are involved (no coercion, no drug use, just 2 people exchanging sex for money) was religious and a secondary claim in the form I chose to present it that the religious argument is not actually based on what God (whatever that is) wants but rather what the clergy have told us that their purported God wants. There was also a reference to fancy hats which could have been interpreted to refer to the hats that Cardinals in the Catholic hierarchy wear but I already indicated that this was not the intent of the reference and you never took up a challenge of it anyway so it is not relevant.

The only part of my statement which you chose to challenge was the idea that Protestants get their ethical (and presumably religious) beliefs from their clergy.

Well, if they are not devoting serious thought to their faith and what it means then they are not deriving their faith based ethical considerations on their own, nor are they critically questioning the messages presented to them by their clergy. Without doing either of these things then where exactly does the average Protestant's religious belief system come from except simply believing whatever the guy standing at the pulpit on Sunday told them to believe? If you have a 4th source I'd love to hear it.

[identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I live in Amsterdam so I know a bit about this, it is legal but the conditions are not regulated (there is no "quality of services" control). Most of the workers are immigrant temporary workers, usually from Latin America, Africa or Eastern Europe. They have a chance to make a lot of money in a few years if they are experienced, professional and can maintain a regular clientele, the ones that try to make a quick killing scamming off tourists don't usually manage to do so.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)
My position is probably better characterized as ontological than ethical. I believe that humankind is rightly an expression of the divine and that sexual congress is rightly an expression of the communion between Christ and His Church. Prostitution is thus akin to simony -- in that it places a base price on that which is sacred. It was for this reason, for example, that Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the Temple.

I'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who says "Oh God!" when I climax. :P

[identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
It should be legalized in big cities, regulated for taxation and offered the same public benefits as any other independent profession. I don't think it's a job for everyone, it takes some communication/acting, self-control and good money management. It seems they also pretty much have to give up most of their own pleasure and physical privacy. Ultimately it's a job of self-sacrifice but the part about dignity has more to do with society's negative view than with the work itself.

[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com 2011-07-05 07:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Well you have either made this assertion or shown you like to argue irrelivancies for no point.

No, I neither made the assertion nor did I "argue irrelivancies [sic] for no point."

My points were rather clear and correct. Perhaps the more important lesson here is for you to avoid statements that are both inaccurate and irrelevant -- such as that Protestants listen to priests in funny hats or that a core tenet of the Reformation was personal interpretation of scripture.

If you have a 4th source I'd love to hear it.

These false dichotomies are rather silly. I mean, is there nothing between "serious thought" and "simply believing?" And don't many other factors figure into an individual's ethical considerations -- including family of origin, prevailing culture, etc.

Really, the whole topic of religion seems to put you into a total fog.

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