In an ideal world...

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Ok, in an ideal world, the Italians would never have been allowed to use mustard gas on civilians in Etheopia. In an ideal world, Standard Oil would not have sold Hitler all the oil he needed to invade Poland and then run amok in Europe. In an ideal world, the UK and USA would put ethics before their own economic interests and would never install tyrants like Idi Amiin or Saddam Hussain.

But we don't live in an ideal world. However, if we did, what would happen next in Libya?

Without troops o the ground, wars cannot be won. We bombed germany into ruins, but it was not until Russians, Yanks, and Brits marched into Berlin and flew their flags that hitler's people got down to signing the documents for unconditional surrender.

It may be argued that troops on the ground need to occupy Libya, but whose troops? I think that the only fair and just settlement to the gaddaffi question is that we must let his own people deal with him themselves.

The UK, the US , and even the UN, can send in warplanes to shoot down Gaddaffi's air force, which is currently being used to kill the rebels who want him deposed. We could also attack his tanks and artilliery from the air, but we must let - we should let, the Libyans take care of this tyrant for themselves.

We must not invade and set up a western style puppet government to ensure ourown interests, but rather support the democratic movement within Libya itself. Gaddaffi has it coming to him. he has sponsored acts of terrorism against the West, from arming and funding the IRA to the bombing of a Pan Am jet over Lockerbie. It's payback time, and if his own people depose him and put him on trail, don't ask me to speak in his defence.

However, while air strikes against the Gaddaffian troops and shooting down any planes that threaten the rebel advances must begin immediately, it would be wrong for anyone else to march in and take the victory from the rebel forces. Let's assist from the air, but leave our ground forces out of it. Libya must be liberated by the Libyan people, primarily. And we owe it to them to send in the help that they ask for.

Comments

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

How do you justify those other airstrikes that are not aimed at his aircraft? The UN resolution explicitly states that you're to enforce a no-fly zone. So why are you bombing defense facilities and armored vehicles? Can they fly?

It's funny how you used to call him your buddy until yesterday, but suddenly he's a mad dog, eh? How fast things turn around.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

How do you justify those other airstrikes that are not aimed at his aircraft? The UN resolution explicitly states that you're to enforce a no-fly zone. So why are you bombing defense facilities and armored vehicles? Can they fly?

If the UN will only let us attack government aircraft, we should do that at present. we should however, press for what our allies are asking - and if that means taking out gadaffian tanks and arty or whatever, then we do it. we do whatever it takes to get rid of gaddaffi because pro democratic forces in libya want him out.

And why should we get rid of gaddaffi, or aid his enemies - i mean , what harm has he done to us - is that what you are asking.
Ok, there is Lockerbie, there is WPC Yvonne Fletcher. And there are gaddaffi's bloodsatined hand prints on both those incidents.


It's funny how you used to call him your buddy until yesterday, but suddenly he's a mad dog, eh? How fast things turn around.

No, not really. can you prove that I, Gerry Haines, was ever sympathetic, never mind supportive, of Gaddaffi's regime or it's actions? You may say that successive British governments were, but I was never a part of any government run by any political party.

As a Green , I have consistently stood for the rights of democratic self representation and human rights against the interessts of business corporations - including British ones. And i defy anyone to challenge me on that.

It may bbe that currently , the PM we have at present is being forced to reconsider his relationship with gaddaffi, but i am not in the same position as he is - i have always considered gaddaffi to be a despotic dictator who should have been kept at arms length.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

pro democratic forces in libya

You don't know that. Is that what you hear on BBC? How much do you trust your media? Are you sure they have enough information on this?

And why should we get rid of gaddaffi, or aid his enemies - i mean , what harm has he done to us - is that what you are asking.

No that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you (UK) tolerated him for so long, and how come you (UK) have suddenly changed the tune overnight. That's what I'm asking.

I was never a part of any government run by any political party

I'm not talking about you personally. But on the other hand, you now seem to be a virogorous defender of your country's policies, which is yet another curious turn of events.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

You don't know that.
I must admit that you hold me at a disadvantage there.
Yes, I have heard it - not just on the BBC , but across the British media. And i do trust things that come from both sides than just if it comes from ' the usual suspects'. However, you make a serious point.

I get the sense that us Brits *like* a good story, and i am just as much a sucker for a hard luck story as anyone else. maybe more than most people, even.

These Libyan guys have been under a military dictatorship for more than half my lifetime, and various british PMs have come and gone , and done very little about dictators except put them in place and sell them guns .

I don't like the way that Britain handled Uganda and Idi Amin, I didn't like the way they handled the situation in our own backyard in Ulster, I didn't like the way they invited the butchers of teinnaman square over here on a state visit and let her have dinner with the Queen, and i definitely didn't like the way that tony Blair took us into a war on false pretences. Maybe you can see a pattern forming here.

But Cameron is a new guy. He is a tory, and the Tory Party in the UK is really a party with a historical record for looking after business interests.
However, I think that if someone in Libya wants to take down Gaddaffi and replace him with a home grown democratic government, then we must support that in any way possible.

So, these Libyan chaps suddenly explode onto the world stage, they rout gaddaffian forces and are suddenly holding half the country in their hands as two Libyan pilots refuse to open fire on them and go take their planes to Malta and ask for political asylum there.

Have you any idea how overjoyed that made me feel? "Yay for these Libyan guys!" I said to myself. if these guys had ousted Gaddaffi's regime and had a free Democratic People's Republic of Libya set up by the end of the week, i would have been delighted. Sadly, gaddaffi has brogught in mercanaries and they are stamping out the revolution before it can take over. Their leaders have appealed to the International Community for assistance, they are portrayed as brave freedom fighters, begging for our help in taking their country back.

Sadly, my heart rules my head at times like this, and I assume that these guys are pretty much like me.I assume that they have honour and integrity and are getting into politics out of the best motives- to help their own people and establish a better place for them to live in. so, yeah , of course I support them.

And, it seems , so do the French, The Americans and even the Cameron Government. Ii mean , isn't it wonderful to see so many world leader doing the right thing here for a change?

No, you are right. It probably isn't. These are not people with any sort of real record for acting in the wider interests of the free world, yet. I mean, I did hope that Obama would be another JFK. I did hope that he would intervene in Dafur and he didn't. I didn't have any illusions about Cameron looking after the NHS, but here he is, joining an international coalition to help topple Gaddaffi.

So, yes, if these guys are going to ' do the right thing' and go after gaddaffi on the ground and in the air, i support, not ' my countries policies' as a whole, but I support them on this.

unfortunately, I suspect that deep down , it is not about freedom and democracy for them , it's about oil and other ' national interests'. i hope that the Libyans will establish a democratic government without any interferance from Uk/US? French interests. But I can see too many people want things to go the other way.

The british Government, if it runs true to form , will try to impose its own will on the new regime if one emerges - as will the Americans and the French, I suspect. i don't really know who these Libyans are, or what sort of agenda they have. they could turn out to be Islamic extremists - I don't really know.

Perhaps we should not be backing them to the extent of arming them - we armed the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan and they somehow morphed into the Taliban and are poining their rocket launchers at us.

Even so, I still think that getting rid of gaddaffi was a good idea. Maybe we can work with the new guys, maybe we can't but lets see.