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meus-ovatio.livejournal.com) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
talkpolitics2011-02-21 03:43 am
meus-ovatio.livejournal.com) wrote in talkpolitics2011-02-21 03:43 am
Rape Logic
"Mr. Anderson, you allege that on the night of 14 December 2010, the defendant robbed you on the corner of 24th St. and Broadway Ave. Am I correct in this?"
"Yes. He robbed me. Took my wallet."
"He took your wallet, Mr. Anderson? You mean, surely, that he tore your pants off and physically removed your wallet with his own hands?"
"Well no, it wasn't quite like that..."
"Well what was it like, Mr. Anderson?"
"He told me to give him his wallet and threatened me."
"And did you hand over your wallet, Mr. Anderson?"
"Well... well yes I did."
"So you willingly removed your own wallet and transferred possession of said wallet to the defendant?"
"No, he robbed me! He said he had a gun!"
"Did he, Mr. Anderson? Did he really say that?"
"Yes!"
"My client denies any such thing. What do you have to say?"
"He said he had a gun, and to give him his wallet."
"And did the defendant touch or harm you in any way?"
"Well... no... nothing happened like that... I was afraid!"
"Did you tell him that?"
"What? No! What kind of question is that?"
"So here we are left to believe only your word, Mr. Anderson? Your word that you freely handed over your wallet to the defendant, with no signs of violence, no evidence of any untoward actions, and yet you insist on wasting our time with this?"
"I was robbed!"
"That is precisely the issue under question, Mr. Anderson. Simply repeating yourself doesn't help. Mr. Anderson... were you drinking on the night of 14 December 2010?"
"Well yes... I was coming home from a pub I was at with my friends."
"Really, Mr. Anderson. How much did you drink?"
"Well I don't know really... a few beers, a couple shots... there was a birthday..."
"Ah, so it would be safe to say that you were suffering from, let us say, impaired faculties?"
"I know what happened to me!"
"Do you, Mr. Anderson? I can have an expert testify before the court that even moderate alcohol consumption greatly affects memory."
"This is insane!"
"No, Mr. Anderson, this is Conservative Court."
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Yes it is. If someone says no, and the person pursuing them continues to pressure them, manipulate them, and give them alcohol or drugs on purpose to make them more cooperative, then that is rape.
Also the phrase "no means no, but..." is really creepy. No means no. Period. Period. Period.
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no subject
"
Ok first on the alcohol and drugs, why the hell did you even bother mentioning it? I didn't I said manipulative and possibly even coercive behavior. Getting someone drunk when you are not drunk so you can rape them is in fact rape and nothing I have said here or elsewhere would indicate otherwise. Slipping someone a drug without their consent is a crime in and of itself whether a rape is subsequently attempted or not.
Now on to the manipulation.
Bullshit, that is not rape. There is no force or threat of force involved. Is it right? No, it's called being an asshole but it is not rape. It might even be sexual harassment depending on the circumstances and environment but it is not rape. There are only 2 questions that need to be answered to determine whether something was rape, Was consent granted and was the person reasonably capable of understanding and granting that consent.
Even granting you the argument though, like I asked Meus above, what is the statute of limitations on a no?I mean if I ask my wife for sex and she says no does that mean I never get to have sex again? Or can I ask her again sometime later? If so how much later? 5 minutes, 20 minutes 3 hours, a week, 10 years? Come on, when does "asking again" become rape?
Further more why is it that the member of the relationship who does not want sex gets to unilaterally set the terms of the relationship? Is it illegal to have a personal requirement that anyone you are involved with has to sleep with you by the 3rd date and then regularly after that or you're gone? If not does informing your partner of this requirement after the 3rd date automagically turn you into a rapist?
And of course lets be real, humans manipulate each other into doing things they want for all manner of reasons all the time and we do not criminalize the behavior. If we did the entire advertising industry would be in jail
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The man above you said that the guy "slipping a person another drink" because they felt "entitled" to sex didn't make someone a rapist. You agreed with him in the comment below that. Therefore, it stands to reason, that you didn't feel that getting someone drunk on purpose was rape, which it is.
When someone has expressly said no, any further manipulation to get them to say yes, or any unwanted sexual advancement after that, is sexual assault.
Even granting you the argument though, like I asked Meus above, what is the statute of limitations on a no?I mean if I ask my wife for sex and she says no does that mean I never get to have sex again? Or can I ask her again sometime later? If so how much later? 5 minutes, 20 min, 3 hours, a week, 10 years? Come on, when does "asking again" become rape?
what the fuck does this have to do with anything? If someone says no then you leave them alone. If they change their mind then they'll come to you and say yes. Pretty simple.
Further more why is it that the member of the relationship who does not want sex gets to unilaterally set the terms of the relationship? Is it illegal to have a personal requirement that anyone you are involved with has to sleep with you by the 3rd date and then regularly after that or you're gone? If not does informing your partner of this requirement after the 3rd date automatically turn you into a rapist?
It's not illegal to have a personal requirement. It is illegal to expect someone to fulfill that requirement and then continue to manipulate and intoxicate them until they fulfill said requirement, even after they've expressly said no.
This isn't that hard to understand. And of course people manipulate each other, because most people are really shitty. Doesn't mean it's a good thing.
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And it also doesn't mean it's criminal.
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what the fuck does this have to do with anything?,/i>
C'mon, it's a perfectly simple question. I think that both Rasilio and I agree that rape in marraige is morally wrong. but if the court is going to step in and start legalising, and say that a man can't ever initiate anything, then the court, and the Law, is going too far.
Yes, manipulation and high pressure selling is , as you say ' pretty shitty', and it goes on all the time, agreed. But can we make selling illegal?
We can restrict it by insisting that nobody makes false claims, that goods 'must be fit for purpose', but the only way of dealing with people who sail just within the law is for people to assert their own rights.
And yes, we can outlaw the use of physical force, threats of physical harm, we might even bust a guy for 'breach of promise' but readingthe exchanges here on this thread, i think that's as far as we can go.
If my wife says no to me, she doesn't have to give a reason. If I ask again next night, or whenever, I don't want the Law to intervene with a stopwatch.
if a woman finds a man too pushy, she should dump him herself. Or set out her own terms, which any decent guy would respect. but to deny men the right to exercise any initiate at all is tipping the balance to far the other way.
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Actually no I didn't. I never commented directly on the "slipping someone a drink part" I only dealt with the manipulation and some levels of coercion.
"When someone has expressly said no, any further manipulation to get them to say yes, or any unwanted sexual advancement after that, is sexual assault. "
No it is not. It "might" be sexual harassment depending on the exact scenario but it is not sexual assault.
I mean hell, with this statement you have just outlawed all negotiation and most discussion of boundaries because the instant someone says no it becomes impossible for the other party to propose an alternative and you still have not dealt with the issue of exactly how long does a no last before someone can ask again which leads me to...
"what the fuck does this have to do with anything? If someone says no then you leave them alone. If they change their mind then they'll come to you and say yes. Pretty simple. "
Right, so if my wife says not tonight I have a headache it means I can never initiate, request, or even ask for sex with her again and the instant I do I become a rapist. But what happens when I tell her no at some point in the future? Does that mean neither of us is ever allowed to have sex again? I mean using your words literally every instance of sex between my wife and I is mutual rape becuase we have both said no on multiple occasions in the past meaning both of us have to now wait for the other person to start things but the other cannot start things because they previously asked and were told no.
So again, what is the statute of limitations on a no?
"It's not illegal to have a personal requirement. It is illegal to expect someone to fulfill that requirement and then continue to manipulate and intoxicate them until they fulfill said requirement, even after they've expressly said no. "
Drop it with the intoxication. EVERYONE on this thread has said getting someone drunk to lower their defenses is rape and I highly doubt you would get anyone to admit it even if they believed differently.
Manipulation on the other hand. Please define it for me. Does buying flowers, giving gifts, and being otherwise romantic count a manipulation? If not why not? Is that not taking actions to alter the other persons thought processes to get what you want as well?
The problem here is you CAN'T define it in a useful manner because manipulation is in the eyes of the one being manipulated, a person can do X with regards to prospective mate 1 and be found romantic and charming, however with prospective mate 2 the exact same actions will be perceived as manipulative and slimy. In fact in a lot of cases with a single person any given set of actions can seem wonderful one day and manipulative the next for example...
"Mr Ladies Man loves the ladies. He can't get enough of them, all of them. So once he's had sex with them he's ready to move on to the next one. But he would never do anything to hurt them, no, he's a smooth operator. He's got the whole package too, looks, voice, hygiene, just right accent to give him that exotic appearance, charm, eloquence, and a deep understanding of romance.
His romances never last more than a few days but during them he sweeps women off their feet by being everyman who was ever written about in a romance novel. Most of them say no initially of course but few can resist his charms for more than one or two dates. He never pushes, cajoles, begs, or threatens and yet he can change the mind of even the most chaste of women.
Afterwords however when he stops calling or if they do manage to find him and have a confrontation with him they feel ashamed and used and all of those wonderful romantic words and gestures he did in their time together now just look like the acts of a manipulative con man"
So, is he a rapist or not?