It's personal and Political.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

So, I first saw this as just an amusing macro.
Then I got the book in the pic as a xmas gift. I have been working my way through it. It's not a straight-up case for vegetarianism. It is written by a vegetarian--who admits as much. But from my reading of his work the authors point isn't to convert you, but to inform you and let you decide.

Now, I'm not a vegetarian. But I may become one. This book is making me pause and think.

Also I think I should say this early on: what I am discussing generally applies to the "first world". In places where food choices are not as plentiful as in the US or other industrialized and developed nations, perhaps the "choice" to eat an animal is one that is easily made as it's eat the animal or starve. So, forgive me if this doesn't exactly apply to you: I know we have an international crew here, but hear me out, if you would.

(for the sake of this post, I shall use "animals" to mean non-human animals)

We can all agree that animals have feelings, right?
Any of us who have had dogs or cats as pets know that they can feel pain, e.g. when we accidentally step on their tail, they shriek in pain and we acknowledge that. We use pain to teach our pets: if a dog does something he shouldn't we give him a thwack on the nose (not too hard of course, but enough to let him know: "don't do that!")

We imprison Micheal Vick for his dog-fights, right?

So we all agree animals can feel pain. And if you don't like my stated assumption that will not be contested in this post (looking at you, horse lover) you can ignore my post. There will not be a discussion of if animals feel pain here. It is assumed and accepted that they do.

Now, dogs aren't so different from pigs or chickens. Yes, there is a difference between them, but there's no reason to assume that pigs, turkeys, chickens and cattle don't feel pain.

Now, if you don't know, you should know that 95%+ of the meat eaten in the US is factory farmed. Now, factory farms are quite what you might imagine them to be. Gigantic "farms" that operate like a factory. The humane element has been removed and replaced with cold efficiency. If baby pigs aren't of the proper size, they will be picked up by their hind legs and have their heads smacked into the concrete floor and then tossed down a chute waiting for the truck that collects all the many pigs killed this way.

The horrors of factory farming are nearly too long to list. Not only do they morally mutilate those who must work in such factory farms, but they also cause significant health risks to humans. Factory farmed animals are fed antibiotics before they are sick--because the "farmers" (more appropriate might be: "factory owners") realize the conditions that their animals live in are so atrocious that they are *expecting* them to get sick.

Then there's the environmental damages done due to the billions of pounds of shit these animals produce. Now, usually shit can be useful as manure--right? But this shit is loaded with all sorts of crap (like antibiotics) and is created in such a quantity that it is not so great for the planet.

Then there's the fact that to produce all the meat we eat, we must feed the animals--and there are starving children who would very much like the food we give to our farmed animals. And yet, we don't. We give it to Bessie so we can have a nice big burger later.

So, I am here asking for help. Tell me, how may I order my next bacon cheeseburger without lamenting the utterly cruel treatment that my burger was built from? The expected death and suffering of factory farmed animals is documented and proven. There's an annual % of the animals *expected* to die at the farm, in transport, and an expected % of them who will not be stunned properly before being killed and an expected % of them will be improperly killed and thus suffer longer than needed. These expected percentages are such because the goal of factory farms is to make money: not to produce animal meat that comes from animals that were treated humanly. We treat our animals with no humanity--nor humanely. We speed up the process that animals are raised in by genetically mutating them. Turkeys on factory farms are *incapable* of reproducing on their own. The insanity of it all is just too much.

So yes, help me. I love my bacon cheeseburgers. They taste AMAZING.
But how can I ever order another one?

Is it as easy as:


And again: in places where meat is a needed part of the diet to fend off starvation, this doesn't apply. But in the US and Europe where factory farming is the predominant method of getting animal meat--can we really allow the cruelty to animals to continue? When we buy food at the supermarket for our BBQ aren't we really farming by proxy and thus supporting the inhumane treatment of our factory farmed animals? Do we need laws to prevent the inhumane treatment of animals? or should we all just be vegetarians and reduce the demand for meat so that the industry doesn't need to fit 5000 chickens in a space that could humanely fit 100?

Comments

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

It must be something about hormones, right? =)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

God job at not dealing with any actual issue raised.

[jlc20thmaine.livejournal.com]

Tryt his link for local CSAs in NYC: http://www.justfood.org/csa You may need to hunt around for locally raised meat (pun intended).

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

There are already laws. I expect better enforcement would help.

But IMO you can't dwell on such things too much. I drink clean water every day, while millions die for lack of it. Should I feel guilty? Should I eschew air conditioning and riding in cars and plastic because they're bad for the planet?

Life is full of inequities, and from the moment we are born we become ravagers of the earth. Feeling guilty won't help.

There are things you can do, if you're a mind to. Campaign for better treatment of farm animals. Donate to good causes. Create awareness. But refusing to eat burgers, while noble, won't make a significant impact. It might assuage your guilt, but it does jack-all for the animals.

My two cents.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Did you see the news story about some kids that broke into a house and swiped his belongings, then they killed his gold fish out of spite? When asked about that, they said they didn't want any witnesses. They were obviously lying, but guess what, they're being charged with animal cruelty, in addition to several other charges.

[jlc20thmaine.livejournal.com]

But plants do communicate with other plants using releasing chemicals. Plants are also sensitive to light and rain. And let's not forget about plans that eat meat. Just playing the devil's advocate.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

In the time between your last response to me, I did google the subject and it seems there are as many anecdotes which show good treatment as bad (usually people telling of encounters in comment sections either for good or for ill).

What this tells me is that like the rest of humanity, the Amish are not all saints nor all scoundrels. And just as with other media stories, negativity sells more than the conventional or the meek. This does not mean that the stories aren't true, but it should indicate a tempered estimation of what it means as an issue or what it means as reflective of a whole as opposed to any other group.

[anyusa0030.livejournal.com]

what do you mean.viewing the effects of mass farming both animal or plants to the enviroment is political.but lets talk about cruelity.what do you consider cruelity,what do we do with racing horses,what about just the riding horses,what about birds kept in tiny cages as pets,those gold fish from the ocean living in bowls,wild animals kept in cages in the zoe.i mean is it cruel to take an animal from its natural enviroment and keep it in a cage for our entertaiment ,what do we do with medical research,do nwe stop animal research completelly.is there a difference between exploiting resorcess that animal provide and or causing animal pain for alough. and when we are busy protecting animals from being killed for food should we make sure the birds do not eat the poor insects too.everything in life as a pupose we need to stop feeling quilty of our position in the food chain.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Unlike most people I know what factory farming is and was morbid enough to look up pictures and videos of it. Then I slept like a baby knowing that in the time I spent doing that on the Internet thousands of people died in just that amount of time from easily preventable causes that the money spent and wasted on the Internet could have prevented a thousand times over, and woke up the next morning to enjoy a delicious breakfast of bacon and eggs.

Animal suffering is horrible, but Nature is Red in Tooth and Claw. And ion any case there are quite a few human problems that need resolution equally or superior to animal rights issues. I care more about people going through the mass rape epidemic in the Congo than I do with how people make foi gras.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Because he was a dipshit who got caught.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Certainly the mass rape epidemic in the congo is more important than the mistreatment of billions of birds and cattle.

But I don't suppose you economically support those committing the crimes in the congo, do you?
If you buy a burger, you are economically supporting the mistreatment of animals.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Dude. "If baby pigs aren't of the proper size, they will be picked up by their hind legs and have their heads smacked into the concrete floor and then tossed down a chute waiting for the truck that collects all the many pigs killed this way."

That's cruel.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

And technically speaking there are quite a few Blood Diamonds purchased by people who know exactly what it is that they're doing and could give two shakes of a rat's ass about it. I do not do anything to support the genocide, but quite a few people do. I also do not eat hamburgers, I prefer hotdogs, which like laws and sausages are better eaten not knowing what's in them (even though I found out what was in both and it didn't phase me).

And given that the next big wars are likely to be water wars, my fondness for bottled water and hot showers is far more selfish and cruel than eating burgers is.

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

This also expresses my opinion exactly. I actually consider myself an environmentalist, but some of what comes out of the movement (here, specifically, on the PETA/militant vegan side) can be summed up as "humans are a cancer upon the battered frame of Mother Earth, and animals and their suffering are more important." Sorry, but I just don't buy that.

Yeah, factory farms and feedlots suck (no one from Kansas with a nose would ever characterize feedlots as nice) and animal abuse is a terrible thing, but even more terrible is the spectre of malaria, a 100% preventable disease which kills millions of humans every year, and other, arguably worse things.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, the philosophical problem of other minds has not been solved, this is true.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

I would like to add a bit of personal wisdom I picked up from my own experience.

Several years ago, I helped in the moving of a trailer home (clearing and disassembling the roof, clearing the blocks, etc.) which was located across the way from a Tyson chicken farm. The stench was off putting from a couple of football fields away. Now I am under no illusions what Tyson does to their chickens, but at the same time I had prior experience with eating their chicken and to my account it tasted about as bad in quality as chicken goes to the stench I experienced on that day.

My mother had the experience of visiting both the NYC fish markets and its counterpart in Tokyo, the reputation of the latter and that of the Japanese in regards to the respect for seafood in terms of what you put into your mouth at the end of the process, is world renown. The difference to the senses she said was unmistakable. Fresh fish does not smell, and neither did the Skiji fish market. Fulton fish market, however...

I do believe there is most likely a direct relationship between the quality in taste of the meat you buy and the quality of the means it took to produce it.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I consider myself an environmentalist in the same sense that I consider myself a feminist and against racism: to deliberately damage the world we live in is selfish, childish, and can only backfire horribly, just as ignoring issues of women's rights and political and social and economic equality only has evil results.

There is definitely that part of the Environmentalist movement which takes Misanthropy to a whole new level. And that part is an inversion of what it's supposedly fighting against. And YES, Malaria's a perfect example of what I refer to.

[anyusa0030.livejournal.com]

the the debate should be what should be the acceptable base condition that this farms should be held to,that different than wether or not am doing a deservice to the animals by eating them.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

We use pain to teach our pets: if a dog does something he shouldn't we give him a thwack on the nose (not too hard of course, but enough to let him know: "don't do that!")

In my over 30 years of adult experience caring for dogs, I can say with full confidence that rewarding the dog for doing the right thing is far more effective in producing an overall well behaved dog than is punishing for doing the wrong thing!

And I agree with the rest 100%.

All we need do is consider another species treating us as we treat other species and it should be evident that we're fucking up.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Well, how do you reward him for doing the right thing when the right thing is merely not doing the wrong thing?

E.G. you want a dog *not* to jump on people, so, we were told, when Kyle (our dearly beloved and much missed black lab) jumped up on people we were to grab his legs, so he was stuck and then give him a kick--again, not with the intent of causing bodily harm, but of causing the pain that teaches: hey, don't do that again!

Do you suggest giving treats when people came over and he didn't jump? That might work too--but when he does jump, do you just deny the treat? Would that really would quite as well?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I actually consider myself an environmentalist,

Okay. Please explain how we can sustain the environment and feed meat to 7 billion people in the next 50 years?

I'm voting for eating insects (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/marcel_dicke_why_not_eat_insects.html) since the biomass numbers work out and the diseases don't cross over as easily as do traditional mammal livestock.

Otherwise I sum up your argument as "got mine, fu."

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

The answer is that we can't and so we must adopt a greater use of grain in the diet. That's what works in places like China and India to feed countries with over a billion people. Cheap meat was the irregularity as opposed to the norm and people are going to be forced to accept that by economic reality.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Talking about future wars is one thing--the current cruelty suffered by billions of animals is a current thing. And what you are currently supporting should be something of concern to you.

I will never buy a diamond for just that reason. Should I get serious enough with a chick for wedding to be on the table, I'll let her know my aversion to diamonds and if she insists, well, time to find another chick.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Well, how do you reward him for doing the right thing when the right thing is merely not doing the wrong thing?

Just like for eating livestock. Distraction with another activity and food reward for doing anything but gazing at livestock will do nicely.

Then you'll get a dog who will want to get his treat more than he wants to kill a chicken or jump up on someone. This takes several weeks usually, but its works really well in the long run. Way better than punishment and less side effects.

Do you suggest giving treats when people came over and he didn't jump?

Treats with clicker, yes. It takes work though, gotta be consistent and at first you have to set it up so the dog can succeed and learn what doing the right thing means. This can mean inviting friends over to walk in and help train.


That might work too--but when he does jump, do you just deny the treat? Would that really would quite as well?


Yes, you deny the treat and remove the pet from the area where the greeting is going down. The message is "you're not getting what you want this way". And the enforce the treat when he doesn't jump thing. .

It make take a few weeks practice, but treating the right behavior will build a bond in his brain more powerful than the fun of jumping on people in a greeting context. Then its as natural as being hungry.

Clicker can work too. High value treats for the special needs dogs!

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

You are doing it all wrong.
This is like when the right-wing is caught in a lie and goes: "well yeah! but the left-wing does it too! SEE!"

This is an unacceptable way to behave.

Yes, malaria is a terrible thing and should be stopped.
What the HELL does that have to do with this?
A world with malaria AND animal cruelty is worse than a world with just one. A world with both is obviously the desired goal--but you cannot shrug your responsibility by pointing out other evils in the world.