talkpolitics | Eugenics, genetics, your kids and mine...

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Eugenics, genetics, your kids and mine...

An important question looming on the horizon is: "to what extent can couples determine the genetic make-up of their kids."

I have a simple answer: "It's not evil eugenics if a majority of those with the genetic trait advocate helping future children avoid it. "

For example, I'm quite short, this has not really had a positive impact on my life my husband is tall and I'd be quite happy to let his genes take over the whole height thing. I'd have a similar feeling were I abnormally tall. On the other hand it'd make me angry if someone ruled out darker skin for our child, that'd be cowing to the pressure of racism, I think ... and creepy. (dark skin also protects one from skin cancers and painful sunburns) I don't envy the lengths my husband must go to avoid getting burned. My husband has often been quite cheerful about the prospect of his kids not having a hard time with the sun as he has.

So, I think the solution is to ask people who have these traits if they *want* them passed on or not. In that sense, maybe the "looming question" isn't so big-- most couples will naturally want persevere human diversity, but will not have much interest in saving traits that just make life more difficult.

But of course things are not that simple. Many black folks (for example) might have chosen lighter skin (and some might do so today) to protect their child from racism. I find this depressing and my instinct is to find a way to prevent it. But, should the state have any place in such choices?

There are lots of people who would quickly choose to reduce the chance of their child being gay (I doubt being gay is as simple as a single gene, so mercifully it may not be possible to tamper with this without tampering with other traits) --on the one hand, maybe it's good that gay kids don't end up being born to intolerant people, on the other, there are enough intolerant people that, if the genetics of sexuality were simple enough, we'd probably see a sharp decine in the gay population. I think this is really depressing.

Now I treated the height issue like it was simple, but there are probably some short people who feel differently.

I think we could come up with reasonable laws by asking those who have a given gene what they think about people selecting for it or against it.

And now for a incomplete poll:

[Poll #1768916]

PS. Here is a great documentary that relates to these questions.

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after reading the above I have to say I'm a bit annoyed at first but then again, who am I to tell someone their self-loathing is not legit. If that's the way you feel, that's the way you feel and I'm sorry for you.

I suppose part of my story (and probably MANY other dwarfs) is that since being short is merely a by-product of a more noticeable and possibly difficult conditions it really has been the least of my worries. So I have to climb to get things on high shelfs, so what? My ex-husband used to wack his head on cabinet doors I thoughtlessly left open. I've seen tall people be subject to more body abuse than I any short person I've ever known. I don't worry about wacking my head on anything.

But really when you've got a disability that makes you effectively a freak, you can end up rolling your eyes at people who complain of having a mole on their face. Not to make light of your pain but honestly I cannot for the life of me understand what makes you despise being short so much when its just... being short. Nearly every disadvantage I've had in life has been from the thing that causes my shortness. The shortness itself? A minor inconveniance.

This is a very typical response. Basically it's "cry me a river" -- though you said it much more nicely than that. (thanks) I don't blame you or anyone else for responding in that way. Other than the woman and young man I know who had bone extension surgery, and my family and some other short people I know I have only ever had all of this dismissed as not important. Though, most of the people who dismiss it are tall or at least medium height so I just assumed they didn't understand what it was like.

You obviously must understand as well but for some reason its not eating you up. Perhaps you have better things to think about or maybe you're just a different person who cares about different things. I'm quite envious to be honest.

I don't think I'm the only short person who has felt this way. In fact I think not having issues is more unique, due to the social pressure and the simple fact that being different is almost never fun. I had a lot of bad experiences with teasing. Teachers and even my parents bought in to the crap that "there is nothing wrong with being different" and" if you just keep your head up the bullies will stop." Well, they didn't stop. and I could have saved myself a lot of pain if I only knew that keeping my head down would have made me safe. I only later found out that trying to be like other people and doing my best to fit in was the better road -- it makes all the difference in the world socially -- it prevents any physical differences (like shortness) from becoming a target. (I'm just not a natural when it comes to relations with people. The advice that it is OK to be different is good maybe for some brighter kids, but for kids who are socially slow as I was/am it's just bad advice-- what I needed was for someone to explain how to interact with others like you would explain how to build a bird house. Combine that ineptness with any extreme feature, even a desirable one, and you have a toxic mix.)

But, whatever it is that has caused me to feel this way my kid could feel the same. I don't want that. I'd love to solve the issues that I have (and that many other short people have for a whole host of non-trivial reasons) but I don't know how to do that. I'll live with these issues for life.

I have learned to like myself issues and all, so that is something.

You say that there are things about your condition that are more noticeable than shortness. That whatever it is "makes you a freak" I don't think physical differences "make freaks" its how other people see those differences and I guess how we see them ourselves. Any person could be a "freak" if everyone else chooses to look at them in that way. Some things are more often targets differences in skin and facial features, height, weight, bones muscles, even constantly having to ask for help or accommodations. Maybe the real solution is to get rid of the gene that makes everyone else care about such things.

"I don't think I'm the only short person who has felt this way. In fact I think not having issues is more unique, due to the social pressure and the simple fact that being different is almost never fun. "

Well, you'd be wrong. Take a look at the Little People of America.

Yeah, being different isn't usually a ton of fun but I haven't noticed it being a passel of suck either. As I said before, what sucks is other people's reactions. But people who react in a way that makes me angry or cringe isn't the sum total of my experience with non-freaks. And I'm not exactly the only disfigured person I know, I know other people who were subject to cruel ridicule worse than I ever got in my childhood (because my parents purposefully sent me to private schools where bullying and teasing were not tolerated in the slightest) That doesn't mean I have never been teased or bullied but I didn't have to deal with it every day all my childhood.

And I'm sorry you took everyone's attempt to help and support you in such a negative cynical way; the advice that its okay to be different is true, its just that not everyone respects that. Well guess what, there's assholes everywhere.

And if you think being short is the cause of your hellish upbringing you're probably only partially right. I have several friends, one of whom I am very close to, who are visually stunning. As in the kind of girl who gets asked "are you a model? you should be!" all the time. I see how she gets treated whenever we're together. But you know what? She was teased relentlessly in school because her family lives in a trailer park and she grew up trashy poor. She's a beautiful person inside AND out but the tales she's told me (and her family's told me) you'd never believe! because kids pick on whoever they feel like picking on and it doesn't matter what your weakness is because they'll exploit it regardless.

Your bitterness is all focused on being short. I'm not dismissing your pain at all and its annoying that you want to accuse me of that. I'm saying your focus is incorrect. You decided its all in the being short when really its all in the attitude of you and the people around you. If everywhere you went people exclaimed "OMG YOU ARE THE MOST GORGEOUS THING EVAR!" eventually you'd start to think perhaps looking like you do isn't such a bad thing after all. If they crowned you queen and catered to your every whim and told you daily how stunning and awesome you are especially because you are short, eventually you'd believe maybe you weren't so hideous or whatever it is you've been telling yourself for so long.

or would you just convince yourself that everyone's lying and continue to have a sucky life? Your choice hon.

When I call myself a "freak" i"m not being self-derogatory. The term fits me, metaphorically and technically. My body is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. You don't have any specific condition, you're just short and you dare to act like your "disability" is so untenable despite my telling you it doesn't have to be that way? Who's really being dismissive? I'm realy sorry you're so full of animosity but that doesn't mean other people who carry similar disabilities (and worse) feel anything like you do. Don't put that on the rest of the freaks, we don't appreciate it at all.

Depression has been proven to be mostly chemical. I really think you should explore that fact and stop scapegoating a physical inconveniance. All its doing is hurting you. No one else is doing this to you, you are.

Thanks for you thoughts, but I really don't need anymore help with my depression. I have found and SSRI that works, I don't have suicidal thoughts anymore and that's really great! Also on my own I have found excellent ways of coping and they work just fine.

For example: The fact the bone extension surgery has changed people's lives for the better in some cases is very comforting to me. I just think about that, and the whole thing feels less oppressive. I don't think I'll ever have the money for such an operation, but it's nice to dream about it.

The complex psychological reasoning about all this is missing the simple fact that I've been unhappy because I feel I'm too short and I would feel better were I taller. Full stop. There's no need to make it anymore complex than that. Thinking positive thoughts dosen't work. This does. I don't think I can undo the damage.

And I'm not bitter either. Not in the least. I'm just very very realistic. And my upbringing was not hellish it was quite typical. (Or maybe hellish upbringings are typical?) I know a lot of people who were teased, since we all banded together in high school, there were one or two in every grade it seemed.

We really want to tell young people that being different dosen't matter. But it matters! We have a responsibility to teach them how to simply survive, how to avoid becoming a target and geting beaten up every other day. This isn't cynical, it's freaking honest! A short kid can blend in or, you can stick out like a sore thumb and become the punching bag. The things is one has a *some* control over this happening, and that is very valuable. Kids are pretty predictable. They don't attack the strangest looking one, but the one who is most sensitive and makes the most amusing crying and whimpering sounds when tortured.

I don't think being taller would have spared me this, but at least it'd be about something else, something less frustrating and in my face every single day.

When I call myself a "freak" i"m not being self-derogatory. The term fits me, metaphorically and technically.

Sorry I misinterpreted you. To me it has a very different meaning.

Best!

I never said being different doesn't MATTER

I said it's okay to be different. Sorry you don't agree with that. I have two children with Autism and I hope people like you stay far away from them. I'm sorry you don't think its okay to be different. But that's YOU.

Telling my kids its OKAY to be different and not to hate themselves or their difference is how i grew up and how i believe because its how i live and I'm very very happy. I am not hating on my shortness or even my Jarcho-Levin so tell me again why I'm supposed to think telling my kids its not okay to be different is somehow GOOD for them? cuz I'm not seeing it.

It's OK to be different it just isn't always safe.

Look, I'm trying to find the most polite way to say this, but do you have ANY idea how insensitive you sound when you're talking to someone with an actual disability and telling them, "No, your experience and insight don't count, I have REAL suffering"? Because that's how you're coming off right now, intentionally or not. You're short, and it makes you sad - fine, I am not trying to tell you that how you feel about your shortness is wrong. And maybe you personally would feel better if you were taller. But when you tell

not_hothead_yet that you're being "realistic" and "freaking honest", the subtext is that you think she's being UNrealistic and dishonest in being okay with her disability and not feeling self-loathing about it. And that's not cool.

I'm being realistic about the fact that kids who are different and who react to bullying get beat up more often. That is all. I never sad her insights don't count as real suffering if anything it's if *I* have suffered enough to have the right to say anything that's being questioned here.

I think you mis-understood what I wrote perhaps it isn't clear.

And by

not_hothead_yet's disability I am of course referring to her crippling hotness. ;)

Pics or it didn't happen!!

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