ext_114329 ([identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2011-05-26 05:31 pm

Ratko Mladic and International Justice

One of the world's longest standing manhunts ended today with the arrest of Ratko Mladic, the former head of the Bosnian Serb Army during the war between Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims in the 1990s. General Mladic will be now turned over to the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia which indicted him in 1995 for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Among the many brutal actions he is accused of, Mladic is alleged to have ordered and overseen the Srebenica massacre in 1995, widely regarded as Europe's worst massacre since World War II.

While some in Belgrade still regard Mladic as a hero of the Serbian people, observers in the capital note that the general feeling among people is one of relief. Cynics may also note that Mladic's arrest and transfer to the Hague clears the way for Serbia to join the E.U. and perhaps finally normalize its relationship with the rest of Europe, a process that has included the arrest and trial of Slobodan Milošević and Radovan Karadžić, and which may have never gotten to Mladic without the enticement of EU membership.



I suppose it is true that any monster can be convenient until he is no longer so. Western powers were slow to insist upon the departure of Hosni Mubarak earlier this year until it became clear that his own army had turned against him and would not protect the regime with violence. While Colonel Gaddafi's military HAS protected his regime with violence, he has no honest friends in the international community and the Arab League gave NATO plenty of cover to take a case for the no fly zone to the UN by condemning Gaddafi's response to Libyan protests. I remember when the Rwandan genocide took place in 1994 that western leaders tripped over themselves to not call it a genocide lest anyone remind them that they had all signed on intervene in cases of genocide.

Mladic is certainly inconvenient to Serbia with dwindling supporters willing to take up the cause of Greater Serbia compared to greater ties to the rest of Europe. It is, I suppose, fair to assume that cynical self interest is more at work than justice.

But how much does that ACTUALLY matter? When the Allied Powers convened war crimes tribunals against the defeated Axis leaders, they were in a familiar and powerful place: they had crushed their enemies in conventional war and were holding them account for atrocities and in that case, atrocities that blanched even the indelicate sensibilities of the recent Colonial and Imperial powers of Europe. Had the Allies conducted atrocities themselves? No doubt, but I think it is also undoubted that their enemies had perpetuated genuine evil and they were on the right side of the war, even including Stalin in the equation.

Today's war crimes tribunals operate in a different sense altogether. They are rarely convened by conquering powers in the wars -- Rwandan and Yugoslavian war criminals are tried not because a victorious army has captured them but because agreements have been made to empower a tribunal outside the war zone altogether. The only reason the tribunal can do any of its work is not through force but through agreement that it can -- agreement that parties harboring the accused can rescind at any time.

The same applies to the befuddling choices in the face of multiple regimes commiting multiple bad acts against their own people in very different political situations. The Arab League is not lining up to condemn Syrian violence against protesters, and Saudi Arabia is more or less directing Bahrain in its crack down. It is not convenient to do more than vigorous diplomacy to try to dial these atrocities down. That inconvenience is not a spectacularly moral ground to play from, but I am not clear about alternatives. Since no justice can be had in these kinds of cases without cooperation, the best way forward seems to be to acknowledge that...and live with it.

But that also doesn't seem to bode well for the Serbian people as a whole. The Serbs that I have known tend to take a very long view of history -- in the 1990s they were quick to point out Serbia's role in turning back the Ottoman Empire in Europe and that it was Serbians who took it on the chin under Nazi occupation. I have to wonder how helpful it is for SERBIA at this time for a monster like Mladic to be taken off of their hands for trial by people not at all connected to the atrocities he commited. Will Serbia's remaining Black Shirts simply fade into the background...and wait for another time when Greater Serbian nationalism and ambitions have a more receptive audience? Will Serbians just turn the page on this chapter, enjoy the benefits of joining the E.U. and be able to say "It wasn't us -- it was him?"

Is there, in short, a better way forward for societies like this other than to turn their monsters over to the Hague?

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the ICC, ICT and ICJ are great examples of humans trying to rise above our base instincts, and yes, it is vital that there is cooperation and agreement around these things; it would be nice if the USA got on board, but we all know Americans are special little snowflakes who are more important than the rest of us lower life forms living on the rest of the planet, but anyway...

I'd also prefer we got over this Axis = bad, Allies = good bullshit narrative of WWII. The Nazi's were evil. Stalin was evil. The bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hiroshima; all brutal mass murders of civilians, were evil. It's time to stop letting the winners of WWII get a free pass.

[identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 10:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I had always thought of this differently. The fact that the perpetrator is punished by a relatively impartial tribunal of non-interested actors is a good thing. In most justice systems, one of the hallmarks of a just process is an impartial judge, prosecutor, and jury.

On that grounds, I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that a conquering army was in a better place to dispense justice than a group that has no stake in the conflict. Isn't that the point? If these disinterested parties can be convinced of his guilt, without prejudging him, then doesn't that add legitimacy to the judgment? Certainly if we found out that the judge in a criminal case had threatened the defendant, and was good friends with the victim, or whatever, we'd be skeptical of the worth of that verdict. Same for the jury members. So what's the better alternative? Have NATO generals try him?

[identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
A part of me sees your point, but... I dunno. That sort of blame and name-calling can be poisonous, too. I'd lean more towards a Truth and Reconciliation model, to be honest. It removes antagonism, makes the wrong-doers admit their crimes in their own words, and demands of us - the "good" people in whose names, or with whose passive approval, these acts were taken - an understanding of what happened. It robs us of justice, because it recognizes that justice for monumental crimes is impossible, and the better way forward is to heal.

But then, I suppose that requires also an opposing side that, as a group, recognizes their defeat and that they were properly defeated. TBH I don't know enough about Serbia to say if that's a realistic proposition.

Compare: Iraq's trial of Hussein and rapid execution of him were widely criticized. What's the difference?

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I am unapologetic that the side fighting to end the Fascist European and Imperial Japanese regimes and what they had already wrought by 1939 was the RIGHT side.

Amen to that.

[identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Ditto.

[identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 11:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Eh. The ICC, like all European organizations, operates according to an arcane game of European politics, favors and agendas that is no different than anything else. Western Europe, quite simply, has an unjustified place of honor in the realm of international justice, especially when it comes to the Balkans. This isn't going to strike me as justice served, this is just foreign policy by another means.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2011-05-26 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
The only reason the tribunal can do any of its work is not through force but through agreement that it can -- agreement that parties harboring the accused can rescind at any time.

At the cost of great political damage. They work because we've agreed they should, just like civilization at its very fundamental level. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's the natural evolution of culture. We start bashing each other with clubs until we decide we'd rather work together and have shared expectations, then our tribes conquer each other until we decide to work together, then our states conquer each other until we decide to work together, etc.

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 12:30 am (UTC)(link)
Thing is that the Nuremberg Trials and the Tokyo Trials came from a Soviet idea, not the one of the democracies. And the Soviets just wanted to repeat the Show Trials of the 30s, not to set a serious precedent (as was shown by the conviction of Wehrmacht personnel for the Katyn Massacre during the actual trials). And even then the Allies did not try anything equivalent to a serious attempt to dismantle either the German or Japanese systems of governance and military power that existed before the war, Operation Paperclip and the Gestapo torturers who found employment in the Eastern Bloc serving as the fate of Hitler's villains.

In some ways the ICC is a far greater system than that set up at Nuremberg because there's at least a pretense of impartiality.

[identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 12:30 am (UTC)(link)
Thirded.

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
I don't think the Allies get a free pass. If anything Allied atrocities these days overshadow the Axis atrocities, people know of Dresden, Cologne, Hamburg, Tokyo, Nagoya, Sapporo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, but not of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Moscow, Leningrad, Lidice, Nanking, Chungking, Unit 731, and other such Axis atrocities.

The Soviets were definitely the most morally ambiguous of the Allies, but even before the war they were seeking a military alliance against Adolf Hitler, and during the war they did vacillate between being an Axis Power and an Ally, yet without Zhukov and Konev the Allies would not have won WWII, nukes or no nukes.

I think that there's a difference between recognizing Allied armies did bad things and claiming that the Axis and Allies were moral equals. If you mean the latter, then I will agree with Masaladas that there is no remote degree to which Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini were moral equals to Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin.

[identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 01:02 am (UTC)(link)
Yep, my feelings exactly.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 01:50 am (UTC)(link)
How many allies were tried for crimes against humanity again?

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
None. How would it have been possible to do that when the Soviets made sure to try Germans for a massacre their own soldiers committed? The whole crimes against humanity thing always had some element of victor's justice in it. I might as well ask if Australians intend to hold crimes against humanity trials for those who participated in the atrocities of the Lost Generation but I doubt that such things would be forthcoming.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 02:01 am (UTC)(link)
I think you're arguing from a privileged position; you clearly know far more about history than is the norm. Look at how WWII is taught in High School. Dresden is often mentioned in text books, but it usually just that, a mention.

I think it's wrong to believe that any side was good in WWII, it leads to mistakes like thinking that burning hundreds of thousands of innocent people to death is justifiable. It was a specific strategy, there was an option of destroying military infrastructure and making the military less effective, or firebombing cities to create terror and break the will of the German people; let's not make the mistake of saying this was the "right" thing to do just because Hitler was evil. After all, Hitler (for a brief while) saved many Germans from slavic subjugation.

Imperial Japan effectively ended European Colonialism in Asia. Sure, they replaced it with Japanese Colonialism, but they were just as much liberators as Americans and Russians were in Germany.

I guess the whole point of this is that it's ridiculous to have a "good" side and a "bad" side in a war if we're talking about international justice. There are sides, often many. Sometimes, people on all sides do things that as a species we've decided is too far. However, it's only if you're on the "bad" side of the war that you're held accountable for that. How about we just start calling war criminals war criminals, rather than war criminals and anglo-saxons.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 02:04 am (UTC)(link)
This is my point.

The Stolen Generation was an apt analogy to bring up, it was sorry day yesterday. No one will ever be held accountable, but most of them are dead now, the big battle is to try and get some compo for the survivors. Similarly, I wish someone would bring some of our leaders to court over the human right's violations that are current official refugee policy. Human rights lawyers and organisations have already made the case, but no one is willing to prosecute. It makes me sick.

I don't excuse crimes against humanity just because they are committed in my name.

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 02:10 am (UTC)(link)
As someone who comes from a region quite fond of people who did commit crimes against humanity and who led a tyrannical and immoral government that is still surprisingly the monkey on their backs 150 years later, I think the USA's a long way to go before it can even approach its own losers of history and *their* crimes accurately.

None of that makes Stalin or Roosevelt equal to the architects of Babi Yar and Unit 731.

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 02:12 am (UTC)(link)
I think that it's entirely inaccurate to see "nobody is good" as "both sides were equal." The Axis were aggressors that began Big Damn Wars and sought wars of annihilation followed regimes built on force that showed they could not be trusted. The USSR did adhere to treaties it signed, albeit mostly in a Literal Genie fashion. Nazi Germany did not adhere to any treaties.

Imperial Japan ended colonization in Asia.....by an example that made it impossible to hold onto the colonies *after the war.* Had the Axis won, Japanese colonialism would have brought the fruits of Unit 731 to Asia to replace that of the colonial empires.

Both sides did wrong, and both sides had their military slaughters, but only one of them had death camps.

[identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
The fact that someone was not brought to justice for their crimes, does not equate to making their crimes comparatively worse.

In other words, if I kill one person and you kill five (and hence are a "badder" person than me), the fact that I got off doesn't mean I'm just as bad as you.

[identity profile] mrsilence.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Of course it should go without saying that no-one gets a free pass.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, exactly. I'm not sure why you think I was suggesting they were equal. I wasn't measuring atrocities so much as criticising the historical narrative surrounding the war.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
Not arguing equivalency, not sure why you think I am.

I think the USA's a long way to go before it can even approach its own losers of history and *their* crimes accurately.

Here too. One of the main reasons is that History is politicised and it is taboo to talk about one's nations sins in the past. Somehow, pretending like they didn't happen is preferable to saying "wow, that was some fucked up shit".

This is the line I was mostly objecting to:

"Had the Allies conducted atrocities themselves? No doubt, but I think it is also undoubted that their enemies had perpetuated genuine evil and they were on the right side of the war, even including Stalin in the equation."

It just reads to me as "both sides committed war crimes, but the allied ones were OK because the other guys were really evil". It's like saying murder is OK because it's not serial killing. This is the point I'm driving at. Whilst you are right, Dresden particularly is fairly well known (even if that is largely due to revisionist history of the last 20 years, so it's a *new* thing), it still is largely glossed over; to the point where people treat it as "not a real war crime". There's no good reason to do this other than Jingoism. Please be assured that this is much more of a swipe on my own people than yours (although I think yours are just as guilty, but I have more responsibility to be a critique of my own government). This is because it is this bullshit Jingoism built on denied atrocities and false narratives about heroes that leads to have a country that is running concentration camps and has an apartheid system in place. I noticed that you tried getting to me above by pointing these things out, it won't work. Call it out, call it out loud. Say it in the streets. Write to your politicians. I do.

By denying that we have it within our own culture to produce monsters, even if those monsters were achieving ends that we believe in, we blind ourselves to reality that atrocities are being committed in our names today.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 04:56 am (UTC)(link)
That's the point I'm making, I'm not making any claims to the severity of the crimes other than that they were war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2011-05-27 06:05 am (UTC)(link)
Thing is that the Nuremberg Trials and the Tokyo Trials came from a Soviet idea, not the one of the democracies.

This seemed wrong at face value, and I checked around. Sure enough Wikipedia:

British War Cabinet documents, released on 2 January 2006, showed that as early as December 1944, the Cabinet had discussed their policy for the punishment of the leading Nazis if captured. British Prime Minister Winston Churchill had then advocated a policy of summary execution in some circumstances, with the use of an Act of Attainder to circumvent legal obstacles, being dissuaded from this only by talks with US leaders later in the war. In late 1943, during the Tripartite Dinner Meeting at the Tehran Conference, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, proposed executing 50,000–100,000 German staff officers.

US Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, Jr., suggested a plan for the total denazification of Germany;[4] this was known as the Morgenthau Plan. The plan advocated the forced de-industrialisation of Germany. Roosevelt initially supported this plan, and managed to convince Churchill to support it in a less drastic form. Later, details were leaked to the public, generating widespread protest.[clarification needed] Roosevelt, aware of strong public disapproval, abandoned the plan, but did not adopt an alternate position on the matter. The demise of the Morgenthau Plan created the need for an alternative method of dealing with the Nazi leadership. The plan for the "Trial of European War Criminals" was drafted by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson and the War Department. Following Roosevelt's death in April 1945, the new president, Harry S. Truman, gave strong approval for a judicial process.[citation needed] After a series of negotiations between Britain, the US, Soviet Union and France, details of the trial were worked out. The trials were to commence on 20 November 1945, in the Bavarian city of Nuremberg.

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