http://ricomsmith77.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] ricomsmith77.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2014-11-14 03:44 pm

"The Obama Keystone Pipe Dream: Why Building It Will Be A Nightmare"

Originally posted by [livejournal.com profile] ricomsmith77 at "The Obama Keystone Pipe Dream: Why Building It Will Be A Nightmare"
Earlier today, the U.S. House of "so-called" Representatives passed legislation for building the controversial Keystone Pipeline....an oil pipeline system that carries dirty crude oil sands from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico.

cp-keystone-pipeline

It runs from the Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin in Alberta, Canada to refineries in Illinois and the Gulf Coast of Texas, also to oil tank farms and oil pipeline distribution center in Cushing, Oklahoma.   In addition to the synthetic crude oil and diluted bitumen from the oil sands of Canada, it also carries light crude oil from the Williston Basin region in Montana and North Dakota.

Approval for the controversial pipeline, which easily passed the House by a 252-161 vote, comes as Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana battles runoff challenger Republican Congressman Bill Cassidy, who sponsored the House bill. Both candidates are taking credit for influencing the Keystone vote, which is popular in the oil-producing state they represent.  Now the bill moves to the Senate, which is still under Democratic control until January, for a vote.  If it passes there, then it heads to the President's desk for his signature.

But will he sign it?
Cartoon-Obama-Keystone-XL-pipeline-stops-here-600x353

The problem with this pipeline is that the oil that it will carry has been proven to be unsafe for the environment, due to the consistancy of the oil sands.  The main issues are the risk of oil spills along the pipeline, which would traverse highly sensitive terrain, and 17% higher greenhouse gas emissions from the extraction of oil sands compared to extraction of conventional oil. Environmentalists have consistantly been warning Washington DC of the dangers this pipeline could create, but the Republicans and members of the Oil Industry argues that it would help create more jobs and would bring down the costs of energy here in the U.S.

But that simply isn't true.

Building the pipeline will create jobs in the U.S., but not as many as the supporters have claimed, and only for a year or two. The U.S. State Department estimates that 42,100 jobs would be added during construction, but that only 50 workers would be required to operate the pipeline.  This oil would not be used here in the U.S., but would be shipped to other places around the world.....so it would do nothing to bring down our costs of crude oil at all.

So why build it you ask?
Kos-20

Well if we weren't so dependent on oil so much, we probably wouldn't need to.  The world hasn't completely gotten off the grid, so to speak, so we have to maintain ourselves by continuing to use this stuff.

A few days ago, Obama and the Chinese President agreed to a groundbreaking new climate change deal.  Under the agreement, the United States would cut its 2005 level of carbon emissions by 26-28% before the year 2025. China would peak its carbon emissions by 2030 and will also aim to get 20% of its energy from zero-carbon emission sources by the same year.  This is great for the environment, being that these two countries lead the world in carbon pollution.

But of course, the Republicans complained that Obama didn't have the authority to make such a deal and that they would try and fight him on it.

Quoth the raven, Senator Mitch McConnell:
7bd4da14-0a2a-4762-b266-130b78d6c721
“Our economy can’t take the president’s ideological war on coal and oil that will increase the squeeze on middle-class families and struggling miners,”

If the Republican's think that this is a war on coal and oil and the middle class....
keystone_pipeline_protest_11_07_2011

....then they can keep on pipe dreaming!

[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com 2014-11-14 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh. Funny map. "Patoka" means "the duck" in my language.

[identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com 2014-11-14 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
From what I'm hearing, the Republicans mainly complained that Obama had "bowed" to his Chinese counterpart again. Or something.

[identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com 2014-11-14 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
the president’s ideological war on coal and oil

Here's one example where ideology is not necessarily a bad thing. ;)

[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2014-11-14 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
And I thought this pipeline was about enslaving the American people under the boot of the international conspirators, aka the shapeshifting lizardoid Illuminati.
garote: (victory)

[personal profile] garote 2014-11-15 12:11 am (UTC)(link)
You want to be sickened, you should check out how they actually extract this stuff. Basically they scrape up the tundra like a thin carpet, hoover the sands out, process and dump them nearby, and leave the landscape to fester. It's astoundingly destructive.

But if you don't have to responsible for returning the land to a previous state, you can make a decent profit off the process. And so some gnarly collective of fucks is doing it.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
I've watched some of those surface gold mining realty shows. You'll see where miners from nearly 100 60 years ago tore open the ground, and when they're finished, it looks like the lunar surface now. Due to gold prices increasing four years ago, miners were going back to hoover any missed gold. James Hanson has written, if the co2 from the oil sands is introduced into the system, it's game over for even trying to reign in the worst effects of man caused climate change. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/opinion/game-over-for-the-climate.html?_r=0)


The tar sands contain enough carbon — 240 gigatons — to add 120 p.p.m. Tar shale, a close cousin of tar sands found mainly in the United States, contains at least an additional 300 gigatons of carbon. If we turn to these dirtiest of fuels, instead of finding ways to phase out our addiction to fossil fuels, there is no hope of keeping carbon concentrations below 500 p.p.m. — a level that would, as earth’s history shows, leave our children a climate system that is out of their control.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 02:11 am (UTC)(link)
And an example of "ideology" being used as a pejorative when it's a neutral term. Weasel words.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
I go camping in places that 150 years ago were old growth forests, and haven't been mined in 100 years, that used the process of washing off the top layer of soil to collect the alluvial gold. They still haven't recovered and are probably 3-400 years off getting back to what they were; they're essentially now just dust bowls with some straggly, hardy trees growing in them. No topsoil whatsoever. I'm looking into buying old mining land now to rehabilitate.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 03:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, California gold rush people were using high pressure water canons in the 1800s, just blasting off the sides of mountains away, what finally got the state to put a stop to it, the silt and debris from the mountains were causing flooding downriver, causing fatalities. One of these places in a state park now (maybe Yes_Justice would know which one it is).

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 04:13 am (UTC)(link)
It's stil done here in certain places. Tin mining in Queensland has a lot of sole trader miners, just using a grader to take the top layer off then sending it off for processing.
garote: (viking)

[personal profile] garote 2014-11-15 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
Oh but herp a derp deeerrrp PROFITS TO BE MADE derp deerp ha-derp CHINA NEEDS OIL durp hyeeerp derp derp WHO CARES IT'S CANADA derp ga-durrrrp fneeeerrrrp derp derp

[identity profile] cindyanne1.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I still say we should switch 100% to ethanol and soy diesel. But I guess we can't have farmers making any money off fuel (which, I'm sure the price per bushel wouldn't really change all that much) when there are other pockets to line.

[identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
And then, there's the unintended consequence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_effect) of ethanol production taking crop territories and thus driving food prices up (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/20/opinion/mcdonald-corn-ethanol/). Which arguably causes such turmoil (http://www.economist.com/node/21550328) like the Arab Spring, and other sorts of political instability.
Edited 2014-11-15 15:16 (UTC)

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Seriously! A challenge, when was the last time you saw the word NOT used as a pejorative?...a text book doesn't count :D

Wait, what?

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 04:24 pm (UTC)(link)
"only 50 workers would be required to operate the pipeline."

That has got to be a typo. I would really like to know how that number was arrived at.
Dude, even if the don't count the people employed at the shipping point, the end point (refineries)
how on earth are 50 people going to monitor a pipeline that runs that long, thru that many states?

Not a typo.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Not a typo.

Fox News host: Keystone pipeline would create 'tens of thousands of jobs.' (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/11/anna-kooiman/fox-news-host-keystone-pipeline-would-create-tens-/)
Rated mostly false.

There would only be 35 full time permanent jobs. 15 contractor positions.

[identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I've seen it not being used as a pejorative, but you probably haven't heard of those places because they're not American. And as we know, anything outside of America is just a figment of our imagination ;)

RE: Not a typo.

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 09:56 pm (UTC)(link)
OK, even accepting that there will only be 15 people fully employed in maintenance,inspection, and upkeep on the pipeline itself*; why are not the jobs at the shipping point, and at the refineries counted? I mean, seriously, there won't be increased employment at the production end?

One positive aspect, these are shovel ready jobs that aren't paid for by the government ;)
(the 15K-45K, (depending on whose analysis you accept) temporary jobs)

*Honestly, I know people who do inspection and maintenance on water, and natural gas pipe lines here in So Cal, and they have way more OFFICE personnel then that; but then we have some pretty powerful unions out here. :D







[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 10:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I would would be curious as to how the State Dept came up with it will only take 15 people for even just the inspection on that much pipeline.

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 10:21 pm (UTC)(link)
After all these years, I just figured out that that is the icon you use when you are just being silly ;)

[identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 10:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Of course that's what I'd like you to believe ;)

RE: Not a typo.

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
K, even accepting that there will only be 15 people fully employed in maintenance,inspection, and upkeep on the pipeline itself*; why are not the jobs at the shipping point, and at the refineries counted? I mean, seriously, there won't be increased employment at the production end?

I'm not sure, maybe because the refineries and shipping are/were already there? The report is available online, if you find out anything, I'd be curious to hear what you find out.


and they have way more OFFICE personnel then that; but then we have some pretty powerful unions out here. :D

And conversely, maybe Koch Industries could count their Congressional lobbyists as Keystone pipeline personnel! HIP HIP HOORAY FOR THE JOB CREATORS!

[identity profile] cheezyfish.livejournal.com 2014-11-15 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I want to know why the State Dept is doing any sort of analysis on a pipeline. Where is the DOE's analysis?

[identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com 2014-11-16 12:53 am (UTC)(link)
Because of George Bush's Executive Order 13337 (and previous administration's EOs) (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gpo.gov%2Ffdsys%2Fpkg%2FWCPD-2004-05-10%2Fpdf%2FWCPD-2004-05-10-Pg723.pdf&ei=sPNnVOC7LbLbsATNyYDABw&usg=AFQjCNFSXq15lqB9Jswt2qXfoKHHDgF6WQ&sig2=L5s55G9EWxsn-iHSOc7BOw&bvm=bv.79142246,d.cWc&cad=rja)

”Executive Order 13337 provides the procedure for Presidential permits: The State Department reviews applications for proposed projects that would cross an international border with the United States in consultation with other federal agencies and makes a final determination on whether granting the permit is in the national interest taking into account economic, energy security, foreign policy, and other relevant issues.

Also the Congressional Research Service published a paper on the history and the authority of the State Dept to make such decisions. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fr%2F2010-2019%2FWashingtonPost%2F2013%2F04%2F09%2FNational-Politics%2FGraphics%2FCRS-Report.pdf&ei=sPNnVOC7LbLbsATNyYDABw&usg=AFQjCNEODtDETw5sgEaIyplxcv_oWToYcQ&sig2=IXOjkvvfUzJxZ4VyncAvxQ&bvm=bv.79142246,d.cWc&cad=rja)

Edited 2014-11-16 00:54 (UTC)

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