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talkpolitics2009-08-05 05:55 pm
Media, Religion, and You
Putting aside for a moment the questions from the CNN anchor which border on uninformed ridiculousness about what CNN must acknowledge is at least a significant portion of their viewing audience, this video really spoke to me on a level about the religious discussion in this country.
I've written a little about this before when I was writing up recent book reviews on two nonfiction books I recently read, Rapture Ready by Daniel Radoff (about Christian pop culture) and Quiverfull (the author escapes me, but about the "Christian patriarchy movement"), and how a lot of folks, especially the media, appear to view the religious as a quirky bunch and don't even begin to try to understand how to talk to them, with them, about them in ways that they can understand. This clip inadvertently makes this crystal clear to me - the salesman is utterly flabbergasted by the line of questioning in the second half because her questions make no sense to him. Yeah, guess was - 90% plus of people do believe in God here, we could credibly, demographically, be considered a "Christian nation" regardless of one's views on the matter, and her question is "well, what would Jesus do," as if her entire knowledge of religious thought and spiritual viewpoints comes from a popular fad from 10 years ago.
The battles over religion are going to get worse, not better. The right is in full force right now, and it's going to translate to local and state races in 2009 and the midterms next year. I'm not convinced at all that the less religious - or anti-religious of us in many cases - are going to be able to gain ground with these folks as long as we keep acting like religion, spiritual belief, and religion-as-culture is some sort of quirk or oddity. There's secularism - a heady, worthwhile goal in many areas - and there's burning bridges to make some sort of, well, holier than thou point about how wacky the religious folk are.
This piece could have been a great piece on promotional ingenuity that'd make Billy Mays proud, or even turned into a solid discussion as to how religion and patriotism factor into his business plan and how his customers respond. Instead, it's the mainstream media deciding that he's not to be taken seriously, thus meaning that it becomes the mainstream media deciding that a sizeable minority, perhaps plurality, if not outright majority of people are nothing more than a quaint national joke. That's not right.
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I, personally, believe in God but, I don't think I would be considered a Christian, not by anyone who self identifies as such. I certainly don't consider myself one. Even if 75% of the nation considered themselves to be Christian, we still have separation between church and state. Therefore, to be a christian nation is to endorse one religion, albeit a multi-factional one. To do so is to tacitly inform non christians that they are not truly American and, perhaps, that they do not belong here.
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I was more or less with you until this. The statement is not exclusionary in itself unless it's being couched in the "get all them heathens out." Which exists in some very small circles but doesn't represent even the fringe religious.
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I never spent a day in public school, spending my entire schooling, college included, in Catholic institutions. Not only did I largely grow up around this, but I more or less lived it for a time, albeit not in a fundamentalist way. I can say, through experience and through study, that what you're saying is not common.
Christians do not understand that promotion of their religion has a chilling effect on non christians, right or wrong.
But non-Christians are very few in the grand scheme of things for one. For another, think about it - isn't denial of religion in the public discussion a chilling effect to the majority religious? It seems as though that we who don't ascribe to religions or higher powers of any sort seem to forget that.
Being a christian nation does not explicitly outcast non christians but, it sure doesn't make them feel welcome.
As an atheist, I don't feel excluded when someone states the Christian nation thing as a current reality. I may get annoyed at the ahistoricality of it when discussing the founding of the nation, but still. I don't get this mentality.
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It is among my Muslim and pagan friends. It's not like we are looking over our shoulder for the Inquisition. Let's just say that our experiences differ. Just because you do not feel excluded does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. Catholics are my favorite christians. I find them more relaxed than Protestants. I don't really understand most of the differences between the protestant faiths.
"But non-Christians are very few in the grand scheme of things for one. "
Perhaps in America but not the rest of the world. I realize the discussion is not about the rest of the world. Still, how does that affect the way the rest of the world views America?
With a bit of Google, I see between 73 and 80% of Americans self identify as christian. However, there is wide discrepancy between how many go to church regularly. I see surveys between 18 and 47%. I suppose that regularly is a bit of a fuzzy word. Is going only on Easter and Christmas regular enough?
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I'm saying that your experience does not appear to be the norm, nor does your experience reflect the actual intent or even attitude of those expressing the option that you feel excludes you. There's a significant amount of self-victimization in the nonreligious community and this is part and parcel with that.
I don't really understand most of the differences between the protestant faiths
This might be a lot of it. I'm not implying that you're ignorant here, but there's a lot of rich information to be gotten here. I respected these faiths a LOT more once I got to a better understanding.
Perhaps in America but not the rest of the world. I realize the discussion is not about the rest of the world. Still, how does that affect the way the rest of the world views America?
Given that there are European countries that still have state religions and that we're generally fine with various state religions, religious states, and other forms of theocracies, why should we care? Even as a significantly religious nation, we're one of the most religiously tolerant nations on the planet, and one of the select few who actually enshrine freedom of religion within our foundational documents. We're, to this point, proof that different religions can live in harmony - I fear many folks like the reporter in this clip are, knowingly or not, eroding that.
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Say rather that my experience does not reflect the norms in your experience. Personally, I do not feel victimized or excluded, but I understand that others do.
I have no problems admitting to ignorance. There is a lot I don't know. I've talked to many protestants about what makes a Baptist different from a Lutheran or a Methodist but the subtleties elude me. I believe that Episcopalians are American members of the Church of England, sort of. Not understanding is not the same as not respecting.
Why should we care how the rest of the world views America? That is a subject for a whole other post, a bit off topic for this one.
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But I can relate to feeling painfully excluded from other groups when members of the majority address the whole group in language that excludes people who are different, regardless of whether they exclude people intentionally or without thinking (it's often hard to tell).
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(p.s. not that I've anything against religion per se, only that I'm constantly irritated at the constant involvement of religion in government affairs, something that is inconsistant with the pluralistic nature of our country.)
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1) That poll is a severe outlier from every other poll we've seen in the last decade.
2) That same poll notes a significant number of self-identified atheists who believe in God.
We're not seeing a lot of extra growth as much as we're seeing a lot of people not being as silent about it.
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