ext_306469 ([identity profile] paft.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2013-11-22 10:32 am
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Hating on the Poor

The author responds to a comment on her blogpost Why I Make Terrible Decisions:

I would like to understand what you are really angry about. Is it that I am poor and insufficiently servile about it? Is it that you legitimately think that you are somehow morally superior? Is it that I dared to write my thoughts down and someone forced you to read them? Is it that you never spend fifty dollars a month on something that could be used elsewhere, and you are extra judgey about it because it is the thing you have to be judgey about? Is it that you are an antismoking warrior and doing the world A Service by wishing ill on random Internet bloggers? Is it that you are uncomfortable with the idea that even if I have no money I am allowed to sometimes complain about life? How rich do I have to be before I am allowed to have objections to the current class system? What amount of money do you think gives me the right to be human?


More and more, offline and on, I’ve been seeing the “a feature, not a bug” argument about the increasing income disparity between the very rich and the rest of us. It’s an argument best summarized as, “Forget the poor. They’re losers.” Salon has an acid piece up about Tyler Cowen and the upcoming “hyper-meritocracy,” which includes some of the euphemisms people like Cowen love to use about the fate of the non-wealthy in the brave new world he’s so excited about. “Tough trade-offs,” and “common sense” for the rationale (which I’ve encountered here) that since we can’t help every single poor person, we shouldn’t help any of them.

Along with this blithe rejection of an increasingly large portion of the human race is a tendency to vilify the poor. After all, if one is going to relegate all these people to a life of hunger, illness, and exhaustion, it’s important to convince oneself that they deserve it.



A piece by a blogger called killermartinis is a welcome antidote to the Friedmans and the Cowens of this world. Yes, the author says, poor people often make bad decisions. Here’s why. Here’s what it’s like to be poor.

I know how to cook. I had to take Home Ec to graduate high school. Most people on my level didn't. Broccoli is intimidating. You have to have a working stove, and pots, and spices, and you'll have to do the dishes no matter how tired you are or they'll attract bugs. It is a huge new skill for a lot of people. That's not great, but it's true. And if you fuck it up, you could make your family sick. We have learned not to try too hard to be middle-class. It never works out well and always makes you feel worse for having tried and failed yet again. Better not to try. It makes more sense to get food that you know will be palatable and cheap and that keeps well. Junk food is a pleasure that we are allowed to have; why would we give that up? We have very few of them.


And her reaction, posted at the beginning of this OP, to the inevitable hostile commenter reacting to the fact that she (horrors!) smokes cigarettes, is as worthwhile a read as the article.

What she (and, inadvertently, the commenter) highlights is the assumption that a poor person who complains about being poor is speaking out of turn. A poor person should be ashamed of being poor, to the point of giving up even those small pleasures they can afford, and should not talk back to his or her literal wealthy “superiors” – who, if the poor person is really, really good, might toss a few nice leftovers into a donation box. The word “uppity” is rarely used, but it’s pretty similar to the affluent white attitude towards blacks that I remember from the American south of my childhood, which often involved a definition of “good” that required a staggering level of self-abnegation. A passage from Sinclair Lewis’ satiric novel about a fascist takeover in the US, It Can’t Happen Here, sums it up:

“In order…to give the most sympathetic aid possible to all Negroes who comprehend their proper and valuable place in society, all such colored persons, male or female, as can prove that they have devoted not less than forty-five years to such suitable tasks as domestic service, agricultural labor, and common labor in industries, shall at the age of sixty-five be permitted to appear before a special Board, composed entirely of white persons, and upon proof that while employed they have never been idle except through sickness, they shall be recommended for pensions…”

The awful part is that this seems generous compared to the current right wing libertarian attitude towards the poor.

*

[identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com 2013-11-22 06:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Could you use lj cut please? Thanks in advance.

[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2013-11-22 06:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I threw my iPad down in exasperation at broccoli is intimidating.

Query: Are people poor because they find broccoli intimidating or do they find broccoli intimidating because they are poor?

Follow up: What did poor people eat before the advent of fast food? Surely there were few people poorer than my father's family during the Depression and yet my grandparents were not only able to cook broccoli they were able to grow it.

For the record: I am not a fan of meritocracy. It is built on they lie that we are all meritorious. We are not. No one would like it if they got what they really deserved.

[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2013-11-22 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Didn't say I stopped reading.

[identity profile] dexeron.livejournal.com 2013-11-22 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Here's a link that starts off with one of those tired memes you reference, about the poor buying things they don't "deserve," and turns it around on its head a bit. I think it's good evidence that before we judge others, we should maybe just not.

http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/66916915720/seananmcguire-cumbersome-cucumber

There's a great quote on this: "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." -- Herman Melville

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
Wasn't it George H. W. Bush who famously said, "I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli"? The weight of broccoli falls heaviest on the poor.

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 01:20 am (UTC)(link)
"The awful part is that this seems generous compared to the current right wing libertarian attitude towards the poor."

I am truly at a loss how this is much different than this: "Understand the single most defining characteristic of a liberal or a leftist is that they are lazy. They do not want to work. They do not want to strive. They want an easy and paid-for life as much as possible."....which was from a link, to which you responded by taking it personal, giving personal family info ending with: "Do explain what you know about them that warrants this insult."

Rather than list all my righteous attributes and those of my family who are pretty much mostly right wing libertarians (or worse yet, some are right wing Christian Fundamentalists) I'll just ask, do you think there is a difference?

[identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 01:46 am (UTC)(link)
Qu'ils mangent de la chou-fleur?

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 04:36 am (UTC)(link)
I love broccoli, and even brussels sprouts. Spinach and lima beans on the other hand...

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 04:39 am (UTC)(link)
ALL right wing libertarians???? Who knew.

(would given quotes from lazy liberals make my point?)

[identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
How does one prepare broccoli wrong in such a way that people get sick? And has this person never been to a grocery store? You can buy frozen broccoli with cheese sauce or butter, you just heat it in the microwave.

[identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 09:29 am (UTC)(link)
How does one prepare broccoli wrong in such a way that people get sick?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli)
And has this person never been to a grocery store? You can buy frozen broccoli with cheese sauce or butter, you just heat it in the microwave.
I would imagine microwaves are few and far between in the types of motels that low income people live in. At least I've never really seen one in the seedy spots I've ventured to. Most people brought hot plates with em.

[identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
1) People eat raw broccoli, you're perhaps thinking of raw meat?

2) Low income people live in motels? I'd love to hear what percentage you think do that.

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 01:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I always liked broccoli and never understood why it got such a bad rap. I never had Brussels sprouts when I was young, but only heard about it as vague rumours of dread from other children; I like them now, though I prefer baked to boiled. But, I am with you on the spinach and lima beans.

[identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, I like spinach, but do not like lima beans or brussel sprouts. But yes, I like broccoli.

Looks like we need someone who likes broccoli and lima beans.

[identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)
1) People eat raw broccoli, you're perhaps thinking of raw meat?

Lots of vegetables come in contact with animal shit.

2) Low income people live in motels? I'd love to hear what percentage you think do that.

I dunno if such a percentage exists. It's not unheard of...
In college, I would deliver food to dozens of different families in long term hotels weekly.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/us/11motel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/11/14/thousands-homeless-families-still-take-shelter-hotels-and-motels/otYrDe98YlPfMCgEwiNlML/story.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033698/The-millions-Americans-living-long-stay-motels.html
http://www.anaheim.net/comm_svc/pdf/faq3.pdf
ETA: In case you're wondering why a person might choose to live in an expensive motel over renting a home, try doing that with poor credit and no one to two month security deposit on hand.
Edited 2013-11-23 15:55 (UTC)

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 04:06 pm (UTC)(link)
That would be my wife :D

[identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, many many people do not have easy access to supermarkets or refrigerators from which to buy/store those frozen vegetables.
Edited 2013-11-23 16:38 (UTC)

[identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 04:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Libertarianism often hinges philosophically on a necessary equivocation of what is the case as what ought be the case. In so far as libertarians are viewing this issue as libertarians, yes pretty much all of them think that way. The same cannot be said of liberals being lazy.

[identity profile] notmrgarrison.livejournal.com 2013-11-23 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Are we talking about refugees in Sudan or poor people in the US? Just a few posts ago you were claiming a former college professor with a house qualified as poor. Now apparently the typical poor person doesn't have a microwave or a refrigerator/freezer in their apartment. I'm sure most homeless people don't, but they are not typical. Nor is contracting e-coli from eating raw broccoli.

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