http://a-new-machine.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2013-06-30 03:45 pm
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"The Right to Remain Silent Requires You To Speak"

That's the headline I'd have chosen for this month's big criminal law case out of the Supreme Court, Salinas v. Texas. The result is a bit fragmented, with the "majority" opinion being just 3 justices, but the long and short of it is that, in a non-custodial interview with the police, if you want to invoke your right to remain silent, you have to tell the police that you're doing so. Otherwise, they can describe your physical, non-verbal reactions to questions -- like, as was the case in Salinas, looking nervous and being silent after being asked whether shells found at the scene of a murder would match your gun. This is not, according to the Justices, a violation of the privilege against self-incrimination guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.


Now, many contrast this with Miranda v. Arizona, the source of the oh-so-famous "you have the right to remain silent" warning that you hear on Law and Order right after the scumbag suspect is arrested in front of his company's board meeting and/or mistress. Miranda, perhaps the most well-known decision in pop culture, deals with slightly different subject matter, in that it applies only in custodial interrogations -- that is, where you're not free to leave. Notably, Miranda created no new rights. Instead, it established a prophylactic rule (which may be why Scalia, a noted devout Catholic, opposes it, har har har). You have the right to remain silent and get an attorney with or without Miranda warnings. However, the existence of the warning and your waiver of those rights is what renders your testimony admissible. After all, you're hardly being "compelled" to talk to the cops if you'r explicitly told that you have the right not to do so, or to do so with an attorney of your own present.

Of course, in typical restrained fashion, the press has reported that the decision in Salinas "held that you remain silent at your peril" and that the Court was moving to "cut off the right to remain silent." Some have even gone so far as to say that Salinas totally destroyed the right to remain silent.

In reality, Salinas is well in line with prior case law on the subject of invoking the right to silence. For instance, take a look at Berghuis v. Thompson from 2010. There, the Court required that a post-Miranda warning invocation of the right to silence must be done explicitly, or else it is treated as not invoked at all. Merely remaining silent for the majority of a 2 hour, 45 minute custodial interview was insufficient to act as an invocation of the right to remain silent. So, the suspect's responses near the end were admissible. Here's some more on the decision in Berghuis for the curious.

Now, the Slate article I rather derisively linked above does raise some good points. I'll re-link here to save you the scroll. He writes about the other concerns in any interrogation, with false confessions and forceful interrogations. However, it's worth noting that in a case like the one he cites (that of Nicholas Yarris), the cops already lied about what details the suspect confessed. Really, if they're going to outright frame someone, what's to stop them from simply saying he never invoked his right to silence?

To me, the greater concern isn't police corruption -- after all, if they're lying about X, they'll lie about Y as well. No, the real problems are the perfectly legal things that can go on in an interrogation that take advantage of the public's legal ignorance. The average interrogation, even a non-custodial one, confronts legal novices with legal experts, often without any legal expert on the citizen's side. Worse, the novices largely overestimate their own legal knowledge. A lot of folks still believe common legal myths, like the idea that the police have to read you the Miranda warnings as they're arresting you, or that an undercover cop must identify himself if directly asked. Most don't know that the police can lie about almost anything during an interrogation. Salinas likely believed that his silence could not be used against him, despite a long history requiring that the invocation of the right to remain silent be explicit, because he simply had no idea.

This is why the best possible advice you can get on police interrogations is this: never, ever talk to the police.

[identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com 2013-07-01 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Jeeze Jeff, what are trying to do, undermine your (undeserved) reputation??

[identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com 2013-07-01 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
My apologies. All hail lord government, corporations be its name.

[identity profile] novapsyche.livejournal.com 2013-07-01 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
"Should we talk about the weather? / Should we talk about the government?"
-- R.E.M.

[identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
I'll reserve my hysteria until they decide to get rid of the fifth amendment

[identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 12:56 am (UTC)(link)
Except when you talk about Katrina, then it becomes both.

[identity profile] novapsyche.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 03:09 am (UTC)(link)
We're slowly making our way toward the day when the only original amendment we have will be the Third.

[identity profile] novapsyche.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
I really don't mean this as a pun in the least, but perhaps that was why it was such a watershed.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 01:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Its hyperbolic. Maybe you intend to be hyperbolic?

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)
well.. yeah! I am the king of metaphors. It's how I roll. Intellectual laziness, I guess.

[identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually when you factor in global warming, all weather becomes political, especially all cases of "If there's global warming why is it snowing? huh huh huh!"

[identity profile] comeonyouspurs.livejournal.com 2013-07-02 11:22 pm (UTC)(link)
& that reminds me of the 'philosophers' football match' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8) sketch. ;)

It still makes me feel uncomfortable to see Heidegger & Wittgenstein playing on the same team, not least because Wittgenstein was Austrian/British.

& I would have gone with Marx up front playing as a false 9, with Engels playing as a second striker/number 10.

[identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
I don't care about metaphors, I care about unnecessary inflammatory hyperbole.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 05:56 am (UTC)(link)
Is it politically incorrect to type the words 'gang' and/or 'rape' now?


Using rape in a metaphor, yep, it is.

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 07:34 am (UTC)(link)
That is just you selectively and obviously choosing things that offend you.

Go tell the people who write dictionaries about how offended you are there are very acceptable alternative uses of the term 'rape'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

Ignore the first two and concentrate on the other six definitions. And please try to not jump to erroneous conclusions. It comes off as bullying.

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 07:35 am (UTC)(link)
That is just you selectively and obviously choosing things that offend you.

Go tell the people who write dictionaries about how offended you are there are very acceptable alternative uses of the term 'rape'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

Ignore the first two and concentrate on the other six definitions. And please try to not jump to erroneous conclusions. It comes off as bullying.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 07:43 am (UTC)(link)
Hey, you asked. I'm putting no opinion or morality into the conversation. You wanted to know if using rape in a metaphor is going to get you in trouble in polite company, and yes, it is. You can continue to use it, that's up to you, but you don't really have a right to be pissed off because someone is offended by it, what offends someone is their right. You can also equally choose to then have nothing to do with those who you offend by using it.

I used to use it for a variety of different uses, usually meaning something like aggressively using all of something up "I am going to rape this can of coke". I had several female friends ask me to not say things like that, and I like them and want to keep spending time with them, so I stopped using it.

I'm not sure why you feel like I'm being bullying, it certainly wasn't my intent. I've re-read my post four times now to find out how you've come to that conclusion and reading it in the voice it was intended I just can't see it. I guess you're projecting some anger on to me that you've gotten from someone else. I was just answering a question you seemed to be unaware of the answer to. In retrospect it seems you didn't want an answer but were actually trying to provoke a fight with someone.

I apologise for mistaking your trolling for a genuine request for information, you may carry on.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 07:47 am (UTC)(link)
FWIW I actually agree that your use is apt. What you said is incredibly offensive, but so is what's being done to the constitution. Pragmatically, though, you're going to turn a lot of your audience off by saying such things. In this case, I would say you've turned off people who would have been on your side too.

So you have to ask, was it worth it? Did you fully convey the violence you wished in your initial statement? Did your choice of words increase the value of the following discussion, or has it just detracted from it? Rape is one of those words, like cunt, that you have to reserve for special occasions, knowing it will make an impact, but that it will also mean that large chunks of your audience won't listen to another word you say.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 07:52 am (UTC)(link)
By then you won't be able to say or do anything about it though. Hell, without Habeas Corpus the fifth is pretty much useless anyway, who cares if you say nothing when they don't require a trial to lock you up for good.

[identity profile] rick-day.livejournal.com 2013-07-03 01:46 pm (UTC)(link)
*chuckles* I'm not sure what 'genuine request for information' relates to me making a comment about the deterioration of enumerated rights. I did not ask anything, I merely conjectured an opinion. And I used a word a few of your female friends found offensive.

Okay. They are entitled to be...be...what are they being? Sensitive? Word Worryists? So are you.

Making a comment about a subject is not trolling. Having to explain the use of ONE word in 8 or so boxes of text (when everyone knows perfectly well what it means in context, yet can find some way to be offended of they try REALLLY hard) is just par for this community these days.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-04 12:14 am (UTC)(link)
Deterioration of rights? No one is stopping you from using rape all you like. I'm just saying there's a big chunk of the population who will stop listening to you when you do. That's your right, that's their right. You sound like an old white man wondering why people walk away when he tells his racist jokes, lamenting about a society that has changed for the worse. Meanwhile, the rest of us are over in the corner having conversations with people who aren't white men.

Again, you asked a question not looking for an answer, but as an introduction to an argument, that's the very definition of trolling. You clearly understood that using rape was not "politically correct" (which is just a bullshit way of whinging about people being offended by your words) yet you wanted to have a whinge about that fact.

Use the word all you want, I'm not the word police, but don't ask "can I use this word" and then be pissed off when people say "no". Just use the word and alienate half the population.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-04 12:16 am (UTC)(link)
The president can order assassination of US citizens without trial, that means that Habes Corpus is no longer a right for citizens, but a privilege granted by government. Not to mention the peculiarity where inalienable human rights in the USA are only for US citizens, which is essentially saying, the rest of us aren't human.

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2013-07-04 12:40 am (UTC)(link)
The entire constitution. Those inalienable rights are only for US citizens. That's how the whole Gitmo clusterfuck came about; they decided they could kidnap non-combatants (can't be a combatant in a non-declared war) and hold them without trial or advocate indefinitely.

Other people will know more, but it's come up a lot in the last 10 years with things like assassinations and drone strikes. A more recent example is PRISM; the US government isn't allowed to spy on its citizens, but everyone else is A-OK.

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