ext_90803 ([identity profile] badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] talkpolitics2012-11-28 05:32 pm
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Corporate Religion

A few cases involving the mandates on employers have come down in the last week, which raise some interesting issues:

* In Tyndale House Publishers v. Sebelius, the Washington, DC district court granted an injunction on penalties stemming from the publishing house's refusal to offer contraceptive coverage, citing religious freedom. Of the key findings from the ruling, it was held that even the indirect burden is enough to cause a religious liberty issue, and that the government lacked a compelling interest in handing down the mandate.

* In Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. v. Sebelius, an Oklahoma district court ruled in favor of the federal government in part because the ruling differentiated between for-profit and religious corporations, making a distinction between organizations involved in worship and organizations that, at least according to this judge, are for-profit or simply religiously-associated.

We now have 4 lower court rulings in play right now regarding the contraception mandate. All four involved for-profit institutions, only Hobby Lobby ruling in favor of the government on the issue, and none of this has anything to do with the Liberty University case that just made it back to the 4th Circuit.

Why shouldn't corporate entities have religious freedom rights? Especially in the case of places like Hobby Lobby, who outright state that '[T]he foundation of our business has been, and will continue to be strong values, and honoring the Lord in a manner consistent with Biblical principles." Given the first amendment, hasn't the government clearly overstepped their bounds?

[identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
If the government provided healthcare, rather than the ridiculous system of relying upon employers to do so, this wouldn't be an issue.

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:36 am (UTC)(link)
They are certainly qualified to determine the mix of benefits that will meet their corporate needs for attracting and retaining employees.

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:37 am (UTC)(link)
By that argument, corporations also have no moral obligations.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:38 am (UTC)(link)
That's not what I'm talking about, and I'm damned sure you know that. The Sierra Club doesn't suggest that they have a religious right to clean air, therefore attempting to stop industry. Give me a fucking break.

[identity profile] existentme.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:38 am (UTC)(link)
Lol, (without adopting an argument in regard thereto) hipsterism!

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
and that's what happens. The government simply regulates the market, as it should, and has decided that this should be one of the things that's covered.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
conservatives have been declaiming that for decades anyway.

[identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:40 am (UTC)(link)
Technically speaking they never have and they never will. A good corporate leader would be an arrogant psychopathic dick in every other aspect of life. The problem is that people really whitewash a corporate bureaucracy as though the bureaucracy you can't elect is nicer than the one you can. Reality is generally the opposite, private industry is much more monstrous than government when allowed to operate unhindered.
Edited 2012-11-29 04:41 (UTC)

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:42 am (UTC)(link)
Was the original case about Hobby Lobby following employees around and making sure they didn't buy contraception. I really haven't read the details.

How is it that the only reasonable way to get contraception nowadays is through Hobby Lobby? (I'm being semi-facetious here, but with a point.)

[identity profile] oslo.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
Why is discriminating against religious people in order to stop discrimination against women okay?

Why should anyone with a religious objection to the way a law applies to them be granted a special exception from it?

This isn't about "religious discrimination." This is about the balance we strike between "free exercise" and a legal system that applies equally to each of us regardless of whether we want it to or not. If it's contraceptive requirements today, who's to say it won't be zoning laws, employment discrimination laws, workplace safety laws, etc., tomorrow?

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
Why would it hinge on religion alone? The group has no free speech rights either. Let the FCC block all advertising for the Sierra club. No mailers, no advertisements in the paper, zip. They might suggest they have a right to speech, therefore attempting to sway public opinion in favor of lowering their contribution to air pollution, but that's not the case, is it?

Better yet, scratch that and compel them into providing equal air time to the oil industry.

It doesn't have to be a religious issue to qualify for this discussion, as the argument against rights for groups on paper, is the based on the same foundation as the lack of rights to free speech et al.

It's not right or just, or even likely to happen, but it's possible to do if they don't have the right to speak, and that alone should give pause to the eager.

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
In other words, companies are not free to develop packages of benefits that meet the specific needs of employers and employees. Right.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Of course they are, but those packages are subject to reasonable regulation.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
I have no issue with suggesting that the group has no right to free speech, just like any other corporation has no right to free speech. I've said that a dozen times before, and I'll say it again:

Corporations are not people, and have no right to free speech. They have no right to free religion. They have no right to refuse to incriminate themselves, because a corporation is not a them, a corporation is an IT.

The FCC, as a regulatory mechanism, is constrained to act fairly.

I have no problem with any of that. Because I recognize that corporations aren't people, and somehow, bizarrely, you people cannot.

[identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:04 am (UTC)(link)
How a corporate leader behaves in other aspect of his or her life is irrelevant. While at work, a good leader has integrity.

I agree, however, that the bureaucracy that you can't elect, AKA the public service, is made to seem far nicer than it actually is. Corporations, which are subject to market forces, shareholder influence and regulations for accountability and transparency are far more responsive and accessible to ordinary people.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
should corporations owned by Jehovah's Witnesses be allowed to insist that the health care plan they provide employees doesn't pay for blood transfusions, even though not every employee may be a Jehovah's Witness?

Because that's insane.

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:17 am (UTC)(link)
This is the kind of response that almost makes me want to bestow that old Chinese blessing on you: May you get everything you ever want.

Almost.

[identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:36 am (UTC)(link)
it's too bad you won't completely give in to your superiority complex.

[identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 05:39 am (UTC)(link)
You see that in me? Go on. Don't leave it there.

Explain.

[identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
> They're not imposing their religion on anyone. They're imposing their religion on themselves by not funding
> practices that are against their religion

By that logic, no religious conscientious objector need pay federal taxes, as they are funding practices that are against their religion, so asking them to do so is a violation of their religious freedom.

[identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 06:44 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, he didn't say anything about medicine, and it's like you didn't actually read what he said.

[identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 06:46 am (UTC)(link)
That's a good conclusion, and it should be implemented immediately.

[identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 06:50 am (UTC)(link)
Better yet, if neither provided healthcare and people could buy what they wanted on their own, then this also wouldn't be an issue.

[identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 07:20 am (UTC)(link)
And since the requirements of a religion are arbitrary, I can construct a religion to similarly exempt myself from any tax pool which funds any identifiable thing.

[identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com 2012-11-29 07:58 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sooo stealing this!

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