Honestly: the minimum wage does need to go up

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

This post got me thinking.

I am firmly in favor of:

A) A higher minimum wage in the whole US, and my home state of NY
B) Honesty in politics

While the OP I linked to is not exactly dishonest, it's not exactly honest either.
And this is not to put flak upon the poster there, but it's an example of political rhetoric that is used to leverage one side of a conversation, ignoring nuance.

the graphic in the linked to OP:

1) Doesn't seem to take into account state laws that raise min wage over fed laws
2) Doesn't take into account the vast difference in housing throughout a state

My objection is more with 2 than 1. 1 is easy to take care of, but 2 is not easy.

New York City is WAYYYY more expensive than Rochester or Buffalo, NY; or a large number of other places within the state I could name. Yet, this graphic gives us a number, presumably an average. But that average is way skewed. But how else should they do it? Give us on graphic for NYC and another for the rest of NY State? That wouldn't work either, because then you'd need to break it down for other cities and so on. So what do we do?

We must talk about things in the big picture without getting bogged down in details, otherwise we will have to talk for eons before we can understand what needs to be done. So while I agree that the min wage needs to go up, across the US, I have a problem with the info-graphics created to support that argument. They lack nuance, and as such, are deceiving. Even if they don't mean to be, and are honestly doing the best they can to compile and sort the data, the inevitability of misleading data is going to doom us all.

That said.
Happy saint patty's day.
Was I drunk when I wrote this? You decide.

Comments

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

"A company doesn't always say no to a higher wage. Odd you'd think that."
I never said that.
I said that when they say no, its always the same reason--the budget.

The history of labor shows how little workers will get when there are no safeguards in place.
You want to return to the sorts of conditions that led to the Triangle Shirtwaist fire; Oh? You don't like the conditions? THEN JUST QUIT.

It's not that fucking easy and you really are speaking from a position of privilege. Your faith in the free market accurately determining value is as absurd as a fundie Christians faith that God will protect the good and virtuous.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I said that when they say no, its always the same reason--the budget.

That's not the impression I got, but perhaps I did misunderstand.

And if so, yeah - and? Are companies not supposed to have a budget?

The history of labor shows how little workers will get when there are no safeguards in place.

A history of labor might show that. I'd argue that the history of labor post-labor movement has harmed us on a whole, based on cost and the way workers are no longer empowered.

It's not that fucking easy and you really are speaking from a position of privilege. Your faith in the free market accurately determining value is as absurd as a fundie Christians faith that God will protect the good and virtuous.

You're not going to win any arguments that way. It doesn't have to be easy, it merely has to be fair.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I'd rather live in an unfair world where workers are protected than a fair world where workers need to choose between a doctors visit for their kid and dinner.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

But the world of the former has resulted in the latter, thanks to the desires of the labor movement.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

uhhh, you realize you just called the labor movement responsible for a fair world, right?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

No, I called it responsible for an unfair world. The world we live in now is the latter, thanks to the former.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

The latter involved a fair world.
You called it responsible for bringing about a fair world.

NOT TO MENTION: are you joking? you think that without the labor movement we wouldn't have workers struggling to feed their kids?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Then reverse it. My point is that it has lead to an unfair world where people have to choose between food and a doctor, for example.

NOT TO MENTION: are you joking? you think that without the labor movement we wouldn't have workers struggling to feed their kids?

I believe we'd have fewer. No system is 100% perfect.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

....what about places that dont have labor movements? i mean, again, we can look at the planet and the history of laborers. your view seems to clash with, ya know, lief.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Are they modern, first-world types?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

huh, whaddya know, first world countries have labor movements.
wonder why that might be....

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Because they have foolish workers.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yes, and the rest of the world is composed of sensible workers who know how to KEEP IN THEIR PLACE

amirite?!

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Yes and no. It's not a straightforward comparison.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

You would think he could bring up at least one example of this utopian society that's at the very crux of his ideology. Woops.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

....what about places that dont have labor movements? i mean, again, we can look at the planet and the history of laborers. your view seems to clash with, ya know, life.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

And you're not addressing the point:

you have faith that the market will provide in much the same way a religious person believes god will provide. are you unable to see the similarities in those two faiths?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Not at all. One is fact-based, the other a story created by a bunch of people thousands of years ago.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Go back a 112 years. Was the market providing? Are those the facts you are using to back this shit up?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Yes, the market was providing.

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

How is an untested theory fact-based?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Also, when was the ideal time to be a worker, in your worldview?
Pre labor-movement right? So what, you wanna go back to 1900 style work conditions?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure there's been an "ideal time," nor should there be one to look back on. No two eras are alike enough to make such a statement.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Ahh.

So let me try another question:

In your view, what was the best (least bad?) time to be a worker in America?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Couldn't tell you. Again, eras are different and situations change.