Who's Really Winning?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm wordy this week.



A lot has been said about Wisconsin governor Scott Walker's union bill being unpopular in Wisconsin, that it's not really the will of the people, etc. The image above details all the states currently considering a similar bill, or a bill more substantial (not listed for whatever reason is Tennessee). They haven't been happening quietly everywhere, but these states are not becoming the battlegrounds that Wisconsin became for whatever reason, and many of them will pass their bills in some form without too much pain.

Has Walker provided the courage that these states and Republican politicians have up to this point lacked? Are we seeing a sea change in how we view public sector unions nationally now that the conversation has been introduced? Given the amount of flack Walker's gotten, fairly or unfairly, does the fact that the politicians in these other states don't appear to care about getting similar ramifications tell us anything about what to expect over the next few years?

Comments

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

Ummm, all those states were planning bills *before* Walker. What we're seeing-- whether or not you support it-- is a coordinated effort on the part of the GOP to take advantage of their 2010 gains by finally achieving a long-time GOP goal... destroying unions in America (they, after all, already have succeeded in gutting most of the private sector ones).

This is a huge two-fer for them... they get to damage labor rights in general (sweet!), and also hurt the one big remaining base of support and money for Democratic campaigns.

They know that the demographics of voters in 2012 will be different, and so they have a short, two-year window to do all the big stuff, and they are certainly not wasting any time. They are also smart enough to know what the protestors don't (or do?)... that national Democrats don't give two shits about the labor movement in America anymore, so there will be only token resistance.

I'll add this... I saw a video from the anti-Walker protests in Madison... some Tea Party guy, there to counter-protest them, screamed (re: 2010), "We won, you lost, get over it!". Ummm, gee willy, Mr. Tea Party, that sure wasn't your attitude after 2008, now was it?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Ummm, all those states were planning bills *before* Walker.

Not all of them, but the question remains as to whether the continued pursual means something with how Wisconsin's PR battle is going.

I'll add this... I saw a video from the anti-Walker protests in Madison... some Tea Party guy, there to counter-protest them, screamed (re: 2010), "We won, you lost, get over it!". Ummm, gee willy, Mr. Tea Party, that sure wasn't your attitude after 2008, now was it?

It's called "turnabout is fair play." Not something I generally agree with, but when the President plays the "I won" game, you can't exactly expect his opponents to not do the same thing.

[tniassaint.livejournal.com]

"We won, you lost, get over it!"
We'll have to wait and see... his crass remarks remind me of
"Mission Accomplished"

Will be interesting to see how long the voter's memories will be.

I wonder how well we can home school our kids to compete in the global marketplace when potential teachers decide to go to more secure work environments where they are not hounded for being leaches.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"GOP goal... destroying unions in America (they, after all, already have succeeded in gutting most of the private sector ones).

How have they done this?

Which specific policies have they implemented which has resulted in this?

"This is a huge two-fer for them... they get to damage labor rights in general (sweet!), and also hurt the one big remaining base of support and money for Democratic campaigns."

It is true that labor money goes exclusively to Democans, however it accounts for only ~10% of the political donations that individual democans/the democan party combine to receive.

Over 5 of the last 6 elections cycles (sorry don't have numbers on 2010 yet) from 2000 - 2008 the Democan party raised $4.114 billion and the Republicrat party raised $4.110 billion. labor union contributions were $391 million and 32 million respectively. So if we completely subtract out that money and replace it with absolutely nothing you are left with $3.723 Billion and $4.078 Billion for the Democans and Republicrats respectively.

In other words from a political funding standpoint on a national scale labor unions are largely irrelevant because their contributions are insignificant compared to the total scale of political donations from all sources. This does not mean they don't have power, labor unions are probably the most powerful single entity in local elections and one of the most powerful in state elections but from a standpoint of total spending they are meaningless.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

There's actually a bill in the MA state house that would reduce the number of topics that can be collectively bargained (I believe it goes down to just wages, working conditions, and one other major factor I can't recall ATM). Of course, since it was introduced by a Republican, it's unlikely to get anywhere.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Yeah, he's the representative just south of me, good guy. I don't expect anything to go correctly in Massachusetts, though, so even I didn't bother bringing it up here.

THE issue of 2011

[russj.livejournal.com]

Whether you agree or not that collective bargaining is a bad ideas for public-sector unions, this is shaping up to be THE issue of 2011.

I personally feel that public-sector pension plans NEED to be reformed, if the states are going to remain solvent. Hardly any private entity still provides defined-benefit plans like a pension.

That said, social security (while not nearly as costly and generous as the defined benefit plans that cover most government employees) will need some reform as well--if the federal government is to remain solvent.

Re: THE issue of 2011

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

Hardly any private entity still provides defined-benefit plans like a pension.

And that is a shame and another sign of how the middle class has quietly allowed a stripping-down of their status over the last 30 years.

Re: THE issue of 2011

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Hardly any private entity still provides defined-benefit plans like a pension.

Social Darwinism at its best. OR as I like to call it, the race to the bottom for the working class, all in the name of giving the richy rich big tax breaks, all supposedly in the name of creating jobs.

Re: THE issue of 2011

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

"I personally feel that public-sector pension plans NEED to be reformed, if the states are going to remain solvent."

Of course you do. That's the talking point of the week.

Re: THE issue of 2011

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Well gee, I would have thought that the issues of 2011 thus far would have included making sure *our* nuclear plants really *are* maintaining shit and not lying through their teeth the way the ones in Japan did or perhaps the issues posed by the continual revolutionary upheavals in the Middle East, or even working to repair the damage caused by the Tsunami in Hawaii and on the West Coast.

Instead it's union-busting on the part of the GOP.

[tniassaint.livejournal.com]

I heard on the radio that Florida is also considering this - and with our new cretin of a Governor, I don't doubt it will be tried.

Re: The only conversation that has been "introduced" is the one that involves yelling.

[tniassaint.livejournal.com]

Or rather - blame a two party hegemony that is hell bent on serving their own interests over the interests of the electorate. When the two parties get so blurred that their policies begin to overlap in a big way, you really don't have much of a two party system either.

Re: The only conversation that has been "introduced" is the one that involves yelling.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Well, most people on both sides of this debate seem to be blinded by catch phrases, as it appears to the outsider.

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

This could easily turn into "Blame Bush 2.0." Keep enforcing the policies of a leader scorned by Liberals and keep on blaming them. It's working quite well for Obama and will probably still have legs with Liberals in the 2012 election.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

LIBRUL LIBRUL LIBRUL

[tniassaint.livejournal.com]

We'll all be in debt to the company store before too long. Oh - we already are.

Indentured Servitude here we come - with open arms.

Nope, no class war here, move along.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

http://www.frumforum.com/sen-mike-lee-child-labor-laws-unconstitutional
Summary: Child labor laws are un-constitutional.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/us/16brfs-BILLEXPANDSE_BRF.html
Note the power to sell off public assets to arbitrarily chosen buyers- a key component in most of these union-busting efforts. Same in WI, etc.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43474.html
Can't have slaves with a minimum livable wage!


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/229936/wanting-abolish-department-education-not-radical/mona-charen
Knowledge is dangerous! Just look at Egypt, Libya, Tunisia! Better get rid of the Department of Education.

End result:
Race to the barefoot, pregnant, sweatshop-slave bottom. Foxconn everlasting.

GREAT PLAN

Its as if, the West having defeated Communism utterly, the GOP is trying to bring it back to lurching zombie-life by re-creating the very conditions that brought it about in the first place.

Courage?

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

No, courage would have been to campaign on the action he planned to take rather than to wait until after he'd pushed through tax cuts that wiped out the state budget surplus before announcing his full-on attack on collective bargaining.

Also if he'd had courage, he would have removed those rights from policemen and firefighters rather than just the unions that traditionally support democrats.

Re: Courage?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

No, courage would have been to campaign on the action he planned to take rather than to wait until after he'd pushed through tax cuts that wiped out the state budget surplus before announcing his full-on attack on collective bargaining.

Why does this myth persist (http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/)?

I also wish he had gone after police and fire, too, but I also wish he had ended collective bargaining completely, so...

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Courage? He's shown it's possible to be a flagrant douchebag and not be called on it, which is not courage. I do wonder how in the Republican view of things removing public sector collective bargaining helps anyone. In another question, how many of the states doing this pay more into the government than they take out of it?

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

Public sector unions are not a tangible threat to the budget. In fact, all of the budget-related elements were sidelined just for the collective bargaining thing.

This has never been about the budget. This is a purely political move to beat Obama in 2012. That's all they care about.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Public sector unions are not a tangible threat to the budget.

So public sector unions, which negotiate unsustainable contracts to be paid using taxpayer dollars, don't impact the budget?

I just want to make sure I have your argument clear.

[mybodymycoffin.livejournal.com]

He really thinks these declarations of class-warfare union busting bills are being passed by the voters.

Slam dunk for Walker, at any rate.

[surferelf.livejournal.com]

Walker wins this hands down. Assuming the recall fails (which it will), the public will have a few years to forget about this. He may have "awakened a sleeping giant", but there is zero chance that it will stay awake until the next election. Hopefully the economy will continue recover over the next few years, significantly reducing the "throw the bums out" sentiment among the electorate . Then he can rally his base around stopping gay abortions and cruise to a second term.

That being said, I don't think most voters really care about collective bargaining rights for public employees. In WI, they were mostly put off by Walker being a prick about it. The other governors seem to be capable of a little more social grace than he is, so they won't have the same difficulties. I do not think WI represents a sea change in how we view public sector unions. Most of us didn't have an opinion about them before WI, and we will continue to do so afterwards.

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

"Courage," you say? Yeah, let's pick on organizations that represent a minority of working-class persons, let's demonize them & call that "courage."

I used to think that the admirable sort of thing was Yeshua telling the rich, "Eat, drink, & be merry, for tomorrow you die," or Ché standing up to el Norte; some might think those were courageous things. But you've sure convinced me that those commies were as nothing to the courage of the sort of person who sucked up to his boss and called Eugene Debs a tyrant.

For more bashing of poor non-majority groups, let's be really courageous & drive out some Gypsies &/or Mesoamericans, OK?